by Damon, Pennsylvania, USA, Wednesday, July 31, 2013, 21:52 (1481 days ago) @ Amir Aslam

How dare you ridicule and patronize me like that? Who do you think you are Damon?

I'm Damon, that's who I think I am. And whether you wish to acknowledge it or not you asked me a silly question in which you asked why I pick and choose between Some grammar books and other dictionaries. You asked your question as if dictionaries and grammar books are the same thing. Thus, a silly question. And I did answer your question. There is not a single question in this entire thread that I did not answer or refused to answer. However, there are quite a few number of questions which I have asked that have so far gone unanswered which is fine by me.

Keep to the topic or admit you haven't got a proper response when questioned.

Just point out any part of yours or any other posts that I have not given a response. As far as your idea of proper response; well who knows what you consider a proper response according to your mindset? I responded to everything you said, period.

Well then find me the meanings and grammar rules from the Quran alone? How do you find 'rules' of grammar and meanings from the Quran?

Read my words carefully AMIR. I said the FINAL authority rests with The Quran whereas some take the stance that the final authority rests with Simbawayh and W. Wright's grammar books or Kitabul 'Ayn, Lane's Lexicon or some other lexicons and dictionaries. It is my personal understanding that the lexicons and grammars are also flawed and corrupted due to N2I and Abbasid Dynasty influences. I use the grammar books and lexicons as tools to aid me in my study and research of The Quran. And something you may want to know is I also take into account the grammar of Spoken Arabic as Well as the grammar of FuSha, for my own reasons which I'm sure you nor anyone else here would care to read about.

As far as finding the meanings and grammar rules from The Quran alone; even though that is NOT what I said (because you obviously did not carefully read my post) what I understand grammatically concerning the ayaat mentioning Saum and 2/185 you will not accept. Not only have you already voiced your concern about my "Methods" but our present heated discussion also shows that you vehemently disagree with my "Conclusions"; so showing you how I grammatically and linguistically understand the Saum ayaat and why I grammatically and linguistically understand them the way I do will only be rejected by you no matter what because your mind is made up that Saum is abstinence from eating and drinking and Ramadan is the name of a particular month of the year. And because your mind is made up, you refused to be convinced otherwise. So your discussion and debate with me is not one for the sake of mutual sharing of learning and information; your participation in this discussion is strictly to defend your position which you obviously will not budge from no matter what I or anyone else says. No skin off my nose and I will lose no sleep over it either. As of now I am content with what my studies have unearthed for me.

This is what I've said all along. The language of the Quran came before 'grammar books' were compiled. In that language, Ramazan has meant a month of the Islamic calendar. It is not me that is being silly but you are ridiculing me because you don't have a suitable response.

Another nonsensical statement. The Quran itself DOES NOT say that Ramadan is the name of a certain month of ANY calendar. It is the fake seerah of the prophet (with its FAKE hijrah calendar) and the grammar rules initiated by Sibawayh (which is copied by others such as William Wright) which have TAUGHT the so-called Ummah that Ramadan is the name of a month. Shahru Ramadan does not inherently mean "Month of Ramadan" by default. Looking at the rules of the different ways the idafa is constructed and used as well as the phenomena of proper names in Arabic leave PLENTY of room for different interpretations and understandings of the phrase "Shahru Ramadan" and I for one am exercising my God Given right to question the N2I orthodoxy, do my own research and develop my own understandings. If you wish to continue to swallow all of the nonsense that the N2I Mullahs are spoon feeding you, again I will lose no sleep over that. Do what you feel is best just like I will do what I feel is best.

If the Quran followed 'grammar rules' then you would not get literature and sites which showed that the Quran does not always follow 'grammar rules' that were compiled afterwards

Now THIS is a statement that I 100% AGREE WITH!. Perhaps you misunderstand me and think that I place the grammar books above The Quran which is most definitely NOT the case. There are PLENTY of Sibawayh's so-called rules of Classical Arabic that I vehemently disagree with and because of that I have come to the conclusion a few years ago that the Arabic of the Quran IS NOT what they call Classical Arabic. This is a subject all in itself which we'll have to start a different thread for if this aspect is to be discussed.

I need to reiterate that if you are content with the present popular understanding of Saum and Ramadan, then I have no problem with that. Be my guest. I have no problem when others disagree with and I have no problem with being proven wrong. There was a time when I did believe Saum meant abstinence from eating and drinking. There was a time when I did think that Ramadan was the name of an actual month of the year. There was a time when I did believe in so-called wife beating and polygamy. There was a time when I did believe Salaat was Namaz. But through my own studies as well as benefiting from the research and studies of other students of The Quran I feel that I have been proven wrong about all of these things, including Saum and Ramadan. Because I feel that my understandings of these issues were wrong, I changed my views and understandings and adopted views and understandings that I think are correct. If I am ever proven wrong again, so be it, but I think where I upset alot of people is my criteria for valid research and my insistence on independent thinking and ignoring the mess that is coming from the N2I Mullahs.

If you disagree with my understandings and my personal criteria for valid research and study then there is nothing neither one of us can do something about. It is better to respectfully agree to disagree instead of allowing this debate between you and me become more and more heated to the point it turns a flame fest. At one point in this thread, Sister Laurie congratulated and thanked us for keeping this discussion civil. That trend is on the verge of dangerously ending because I think it is starting ti become personal between me and you (and I am admitting my guilt and part I play in this).

If you wish to continue this discussion in a civilized manner I will happily oblige you. If you feel that your disgust for my stance, my research habits and my style of discussion puts too much of a bitter taste in your mouth for you to be cordial with me in this discussion, then perhaps it would be best left alone with absolutely no hard feelings on my part. I am going to continue to practice independent thinking no matter how much other people may disagree and hate it.

Complete thread:

 RSS Feed of thread | design and hosted by Beach Life Marketing Inc