How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Thursday, May 31, 2012, 18:35 (2581 days ago)

Salam to everyone.

In 62:10 - it says, "Then when the salat is concluded / finished / ended"

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=62&verse=10

I checked also other translations:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/62/10/default.htm

(1) .......If salat = to follow the Quran closely - then why would muslims be expectd to finish it? muslims should always follow the qur'an.

(2)........If salaat = "Establish the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands", then why would muslims be asked to finish this at any point?

I can understand prayer being finished but (1) and (2)???

Please can someone explain this to me as this is salaat forum.

Thnx..

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Thursday, May 31, 2012, 22:12 (2581 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

If Imaan (belief) is a state of mind where you:

  • Absolutely trust Allah
  • Accept the 'Last Day' - beginning a new life (awareness)
  • Accept the Malaika - forces that perpetuate physical and non-physical laws as established by Allah
  • Acknowledge that all messengers were given one message - laws of grand inspiration
  • Accept that the Quran has the original, unadulterated messages from Allah delivered through the prophet


Then this imaan must result in actions. When we emotionally internalize and accept these beliefs, we are propelled the act on these. So Allah in his infinite mercy gave us the Quran and asked us to read it repeatedly. The amazing thing about repetition is that while the written word does not change, the reader changes with every repetition. The Quran in turn gives us four structured functions through which to channel our imaan:

  • Salaat
  • Zakaat
  • Saum
  • Hajj


Salaat is a fundamental function where groups of people come together to discuss, plan, and execute the commandments in the Quran as necessitated by the conditions of their respective environments. As with all gatherings, people are asked to exercise proper hygiene (wadu) before joining the congregation, the congregation prays to Allah for wisdom and patience (sabir), relevant verses of the Quran are recited, and then the actual issues, conditions are described, solutions are discussed, assignments are made, and then the congregation disperses.

Zakaat is based on the Quranic principals that all humans are created equal and each of us is endowed with amazing potential and capabilities. Zakaat establishes a system where each human is allowed to actualize his/her full potential. This involves establishing enablers like economic policies, education programs, research programs, and business incubators.

Saum is abstaining, as individuals and communities, from the behaviors and habits that are undesirable. This requires a fair amount introspection and honesty. We are asked to establish new behaviors by stopping, abstaining from, the old behaviors. All of this is done while we re-read the Quran to commemorate the revelation of the Quran in the month of Ramadhan. Again, by repeatedly abstaining from undesirable behaviors and replacing them with other desirable behaviors all day long for 30 days will turn you into a different person altogether.

Hajj is the 'global salaat.' Humanity from all corners of the world assembles in Makkah to discuss, plan, and execute the commandments of the Quran at a global scale.

Obviously I am presenting my understanding of what should be.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Thursday, May 31, 2012, 22:36 (2581 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Thank you sir for quick response for my attention.

So - we all know that salaat is a complete asking by the Quran.

With your definition as you have mentioned

"Salaat is a fundamental function where groups of people come together to discuss, plan, and execute the commandments in the Quran as necessitated by the conditions of their respective environments. As with all gatherings, people are asked to exercise proper hygiene (wadu) before joining the congregation, the congregation prays to Allah for wisdom and patience (sabir), relevant verses of the Quran are recited, and then the actual issues, conditions are described, solutions are discussed, assignments are made, and then the congregation disperses"

I have 2 questions

(1) ..... Salat was also for messengers and people before Muhammad (SA) and his people. So how did they follow salat when they had no Quran if salaat means to follow the Quran in the way you have mentioned above?

(2) ..... What times have you fixed with your gatherings? - The Quran says there are fixed times 4:103. How do we know what they are?

"KITABAN MAWTUTAN"
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=103

I would like to follow a good example. I am sure you will follow the salat in your home. Do you have groups of people that come together? Do you wash your face, arms, feet every time you have one of these sessions? I only want to know your example because I want to learn.

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Friday, June 01, 2012, 13:40 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Salaam/peace Ilyas, all,

The word "salat" has no inherent link to Quran.

1) if the word "salat" existed pre-Quran, which it most likely did, then of course when it was used it was not tied to Quran.

2) prophets/messengers before Muhammad upheld the "salat" as told to us in Quran but they did not have Al Quran.


It essentially means "bond", and for believers/mumineen the bond that they have is obviously related to God and His System, as laid out in Quran. With previous prophets/messengers, their bond would have been to the same thing, i.e. God and His system, but through whatever revelation/message they were given.
Similarly, in chapter 9, it discusses the "salat/bond" of the mushrikeen, which in this context refers to the oath/allegiance/bond/pact that they made with the believers.


Upholding the bond and knowing what the bond entails goes hand in hand, hence the regular/timed salat/bond for the mumineen.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Friday, June 01, 2012, 15:07 (2580 days ago) @ Waqas

Thnx br. Waqas.

So if Salaat = bond with God and his system, then:

Why do we have to break the bond in 62:10? which was my first question in my post?


Also what does it mean that the 'bond' of mushrikeen with the believers was whistling and clapping? (8:35) You either keep a bond or break it. You don't whistle and clap?

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=8&verse=35


Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Friday, June 01, 2012, 22:26 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Br. Ilyas, please read the following:

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Re: 8:35
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9765.msg223199#msg223199

Quote:
Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 03:22 (2580 days ago) @ Waqas

Dear Waqas.

Sir, I asked a simple question.... you have given me three links with pages and pages of information to answer this question? this is not a way to answer a simple question for a simple man like me, please.

please can you explain to me simply if Salaat = bond with God and his system, then:

Why do we have to break the bond in 62:10?

Please give me a simple answer on this forum to help me, my family and other people who may have similar question to understand.

To what you said in your second response to whistling and clapping, why would the mushrikeen be making group treaties or public pledges when in the previous verse (8:34) it says they stopped people from the sacred house? So WHO are they making bonds / treaties / public pledges with at the HOUSE? How can they make these treaties and bonds with themselves? Pls. explain.

Thnx

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 09:06 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear Ilyas,

Please carefully read previous links.

If you feel they are too much to read, then that is of course your choice.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 14:11 (2579 days ago) @ Waqas

I was very very sad to read this. When I used to go to mosques to maulvis to ask question, when they couldn't answer, they would call names on me and ask me to go and read this book and that book.

I only had simple questions. The information they gave me to read was like looking for a needle in haystack. I feel I have been treated the same way here with your response sir.

I only ask simple logical questions when something is not making sense. If someone makes claim they should be able to protect it and not send reader to a huge page of so much information to a simple question. Simple question should have simple answer.

It is not that it is 'too much to read' - It is seems like I have been brushed off and told to look for a needle in a haystack because there is no simple answer.

I have been reading the threads on here and other forums like ourbeacon for long time. I thought this forum would have good answers to logical questions. But I am very saddened with this.

But you don't have to answer my question. That also is your choice. Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 17:03 (2579 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear Brother Ilyas,

Please be patient. Your simple question, as you can see from responses thus far, does not have a simple answer. Be aware that those reading this forum may have other pressing obligations which have prevented responses in the short timeframe which you desire. Also be advised that all participants here are also students and are at varying stages of learnIng.

As for your question regarding how can salaat end, I share Quasim's view that salaat is a regular meeting of the community to address concerns of the community. Certainly meetings do end but the agenda is ever evolving and participants reconvene after "ending" to continually address the pending agenda.

--
Salaam and thank you.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 17:48 (2579 days ago) @ Laurie Hamdani

Dear Laurie.

I am not forcing anyone to answer. If someone makes a claim, they need to be able to defend their claim. I can only put my question up. I am not setting a time frame for people to answer or forcing them to answer. I am also being respectful and not rude. If a response is given by someone, then I have the right to challenge it.

Please tell me where I have asked that a certain question needs to be responded in a certain time???

If you share brother Quasim's view, then may be - of course if you have time, -- also help answer the questions that have arisen with the concept that sir Quasim is suggesting. Please see my thread with him. Please help give some answers there so we can all better understand.

We can all 'share' points of view, but we must be able to back them up when questions arise.

Please try to understand my position as well. This is a serious matter. Understanding the correct meaning of salaat is going to the middle of the Quran. What is the point of saying we are Muslims or pretend we understand the Quran when we can't even agree on a 'airtight' definition of salat? Who are we fooling? How can we sleep at night fooling ourselves?

I am also only a student. A student asks questions.

All I ask is to please don't ban me. I have already been banned from maulvi's who can't answer my questions.

Thx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Monday, June 04, 2012, 17:38 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear Ilyas,

I was very disappointed to read your response.

You said: "Why do we have to break the bond in 62:10?"

This is answered in the first link I gave you:

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

It is about 2 pages long. Hardly a "needle in a haystack" as you claim.

You then asked: "why would the mushrikeen be making group treaties or public pledges when in the previous verse (8:34) it says they stopped people from the sacred house?" and " So WHO are they making bonds / treaties / public pledges with at the HOUSE?"

The answer to this is in Quran itself, see chapters 8 and 9.

To understand this more, I provided the 2nd and 3rd links:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Re: 8:35
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9765.msg223199#msg223199
Quote:
Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.

And lastly, you said: "How can they make these treaties and bonds with themselves?"

I have no idea where you got this from. Please provide the verse where it says they made treaties with themselves. Treaties are generally made between two or more groups.


Please note, I will not reply any further until you have read the above links, and chapters 8 and 9 of Quran. If AFTER reading this you still have questions, then I will respond accordingly.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Friday, June 01, 2012, 16:05 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Establishing Salaat (aqimus salaat) is an activity that invites momineen to come together and participate in affairs of the community and help solve problems and create opportunities.

There is no specific form to Salaat. Miss-translation of words like ruku and sajda has created a physical form of Salaat we call namaz - which is not in the Quran.

Keep in mind that we need to intellectually and emotionally accept the messages of the Quran and our actions will automatically support our beliefs. By focusing on just the physical form, we get in the habit of doing things that do not produce the desired results. With all the namaz being performed in the muslim world, identify one instance of 'heaven on earth' society being formed because of it. There isn't any because we create by thinking and internalizing the messages of the Quran and then our actions produce the desired results.

Everything created by man goes through two creations. The first creation is in our imagination. Think about iPads, cars, buildings, airplanes and other products - they all started by someone imagining them and creating a vision in their mind. The second creation is when the vision takes the physical form that we can touch and experience.

By using the Quran as a guide, we need to create a vision for this 'heaven on earth' society. Once we are emotionally attached to this vision, we will automatically take actions to bring this vision into physical reality. This the law of Allah - every thought that is sufficiently nurtured must take a physical form.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Friday, June 01, 2012, 16:29 (2580 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Thank you sir for your response.

I think you have given me reasons why you don't want to accept Salaat as rituals. But I find this distracting and 'straw man' type argument. This has nothing to do with the question I asked.

I want to only understand the best argument from the quran as you say 'intellectually and emotionally accept the message of the Quran'.

What prayer is achieving today or not or what it does for any someone or a community is subjective. Please let us stay on the quetion.

BACK to questions:

So I still have the same question which I am not finding any answer from you. In the way you understand 'salat', why is God asking us to finish it in 62:10?

If you understand this as a congregation to discuss the Quran, then messengers before Muhammad (SA) did NOT have the Quran and did NOT come to congregate and discuss the Quran. So how to you resolve the problem with your definition?

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Friday, June 01, 2012, 19:32 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Do keep in mind that all discussions on this forum are for all to participate. It is not necessarily just a conversation between two people. I want to invite other to also participate in this thread.

You asked two questions:

Q1: "So I still have the same question which I am not finding any answer from you. In the way you understand 'salat', why is God asking us to finish it in 62:10?"

I am going to list verses 62:9 - 62:11 below.

62:9 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When the call for Salaat(carrying out Divine commands) is announced on the Day of the Congregation, hasten to the remembrance of God (through the Qur’an) and leave your commerce. That is for your own good if you use your knowledge to understand.

62:10 And when the commands have been understood, disperse freely in the land and seek to implement God’s bounty (His commands). And remember God (His laws) often so that you may prosper.

62:11 Yet when they see some bargain or entertainment, they rush to it, and leave you standing. Say, “What is with God is better than all entertainment and all bargain. God is the Best of providers.”

In these verses Allah is asking us to drop everything and attend the gathering of Salaat when it is scheduled or announced. We are told to stay for the duration of the proceedings of Salaat. The Salaat program will include education, information, and guidance for all to take with at the conclusion of the Salaat program. And as people disperse at the end of the Salaat gathering, they are encouraged to implement Allah's commands at every opportunity and to remember Allah often. It is strongly discouraged to leave the Salaat gathering to pursue bargain hunting and entertainment. In 62:10 people are asked to disperse at the end of the Salaat gathering, however a momin never stops learning and helping the humanity.


Q2: "If you understand this as a congregation to discuss the Quran, then messengers before Muhammad (SA) did NOT have the Quran and did NOT come to congregate and discuss the Quran. So how to you resolve the problem with your definition?"

Every messenger came with a message - that is why they are called messengers. We also know that the message given to each messenger is the same, barring specific variations for the time period in question. Practices of Salaat, Zakaat, Saum, and Hajj had existed prior to the prophet. The language and the forms were different, but they served the same purpose as they did during the time of the prophet. Torat and Injeel are the two books mentioned in the Quran - these are predecessors of the Quran.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Friday, June 01, 2012, 22:21 (2580 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

thanks for the response sir.

You mentioned in your writing that

"Every messenger came with a message - that is why they are called messengers. We also know that the message given to each messenger is the same, barring specific variations for the time period in question. Practices of Salaat, Zakaat, Saum, and Hajj had existed prior to the prophet. The language and the forms were different, but they served the same purpose as they did during the time of the prophet. Torat and Injeel are the two books mentioned in the Quran - these are predecessors of the Quran"

But the Quran tells us the Torat and Injeel had different laws than the Quran.

5:48 - We have made for you a law and a clear way
The word used for law is SHIR'ATAN.
http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=48

I checked also with other translations:
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/48/default.htm


If the laws or commandments were different, and salaat was based on their individual books, Torat and Injeel, then how can the salaat be the same?

This means they had different salaat. But the Quran says that salaat was prescribed for previous people in the same way as Muhammad (SA) people. So the nature of the salaat must be the same and cannot be based on their books. Salaat's nature then must mean something else?

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 02:59 (2580 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

By the time the Quran was revealed, both Torat and Injeel had been corrupted. You reference a very appropriate verse 5:48 that asks the prophet and by extension, the believers, to judge previous revelations by the Quran.

5:48 (O Messenger) We have sent to you this Divine Writ, setting forth the truth. It confirms the remaining truth in the earlier scriptures since it is a Watcher over them. So, judge between them by what God has revealed, and do not follow their desires diverging from the truth that has come to you. For each community among you We have appointed certain rites and a traced-out way. If God had willed, He could have made you all one single community. But He decided to let you test yourselves by what (potentials) He has granted you. So, outdo one another in doing good to the society. To God you will all return, and He will then make you understand wherein you differed. [2:101, 2:148, 3:78, 21:92-93, 23:52. Muhaimin = Watcher. Shari ́ah = Rites = Usual, diverse trends of a community. Minhaaj = A traced-out way = A set of laws]

I still think that the Salaat practiced for the previous generations is closely related to the Salaat described in the Quran. See verse 10:87.

10:87 We revealed to Moses and his brother, “Tell your people: Maintain your homes in Egypt, and turn them into centers of devotion and training (qiblah). Establish the commandments (salaat) in your lives and give good news to the believers.”

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Saturday, June 02, 2012, 03:32 (2580 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

You wrote: " ----By the time the Quran was revealed, both Torat and Injeel had been corrupted"

Then why the Quran asking the Jews and Christians to judge by their book and telling them to go to their books?


Shabbir Ahmed: 5:43
Why do they ask you to act as a judge among them when they have the Torah, containing Allah's Law and they disregard it? They are not believers.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/43/default.htm


Shabbir Ahmed: 5:68
Say, "O People of the Scripture! You have no valid ground for your beliefs unless you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and all that has been revealed to you from your Lord." (The Truth in them has been incorporated into the Final Revelation). Yet all that has been revealed to you (O Prophet), by your Lord is bound to make many of them more stubborn in their arrogance and denial of the Truth. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/68/default.htm

Please note 5:43 in particular reference. NO way it seems that Torat and Injeel were corrupted at time of Quran's revelation. Otherwise, why God expecting them to judge by their books?

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by amirabbas, Iran, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 11:03 (2578 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Salam,

Sir, with due respects, i think you are complicating the simple Qur'anic messages.

5:101 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Do not ask unnecessary details of things (as the Israelites asked of Moses about the cow 2:68.) This attitude may bring unpleasant consequences for you. But if you ask them as the Qur’an is being revealed, the minor details of Ordinances might be given which will be hard for you to follow. God has pardoned you in this respect, for God is Forgiving, Clement.

Allah never wants us to Stop/Finish/Disconnect/Break our Salaat or bound. He, in His infinite wisdom, knows that we have other things to do- bearing children, studying, works and jobs, helping other people and etc. The Qur'an is enforcing and encouraging the Governments (and Governments through local offices and officials) to regularly gather people together to discuss the sublime Qur'anic messages on specific days/times and then after finishing the congregation, it is obvious that everyone needs to go on to their own commune or private lives.

We need to keep in mind that the Qur'an is for all times. So, when the practice of NAMAZ is finally forgotten, the Sublime Qur'anic message will always remain the same and SALAAT with be discussed and established. Allah knows our limits and potentials and leaves it to us to devise ways and programs to establish Salaat.

The emphasis in not on gathering together doing NAMAZ, like nowadays so-called Muslims do. It is important that everyone should come to congregations and discuss the matters. And i think the form of Salaat in open to change over time. For instance, this forum is a form of Salaat. With new technologies and situations will come other ways of Establishment of Salaat.

In the verses 62:9 to 62:11 the emphasis is on following the Qur'an: Say, “What is with God is better than all entertainment and all bargain. God is the Best of providers.”

And of course, what bounty is there on this planet, that we must seek it, better than the Qur'an and its sublime message?

10:57 O Mankind! There has now come to you Enlightenment from your Sustainer, and a healing for everything that troubles your hearts, and guidance, and grace to all who embrace it.
10:58 Say, “In this bounty of God and in His grace – in this, then, let them rejoice. It is better than all the treasures that they may amass.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 14:26 (2578 days ago) @ amirabbas

Brother Abbas.

When I used to ask maulvi's from N2I Islam and they couldn't answer logically to me their claims - - they used to quote me the verse you quoted me - 5:101. You have done exactly the same thing.

What about 17:36, where Allah asks us to use our brains and minds and hearts? What about verse where God asks us to demand evidence? - Bring your proof 21:24 - or 27:64???

What is the point of having these forums when we can't get simple response to logical problems, then we quote the verse you said - 5:101???

Shall we follow blindly? Shall we leave N2I Islam and follow blindly another Islam? From one blindness to another? What is the point of having this forum? What is the point of having any forum? An important question that cannot be answered is to another person unecessary because they can't answer it?

Also - please read the verse you said carefully - 5:101. It say 'until the Quran is completed'. It was to stop mushriks asking questions when the Quran was being revealed as things would be explained in time. Also if they asked during the Quran, small and small details would have to be revealed and this would make the deen difficult to follow. How can you apply this today? The Quran is complete today. If you do then it will conflict with 17:36.

Quasim sir said in one thread salaat=follow quran, then the groups that execute commandments of the Quran. So if salaat is this, then how God say 'when salaat is finished'? (62:9). Why is everyone running away from this simple problem??? Waqas sir, gave a different definition understanding the problem with this definition and said 'bond'. But this definition also has problem which I raised.

Then Quasim said "By the time the Quran was revealed, both Torat and Injeel had been corrupted". There is also a problem with this statement as the Quran tells the Jews and Christians to go to their books for judgment at the time of the Prophet (5:43, 5:68). So this statement also cannot be correct.

Now you tell me - when I want to understand salaat better, and the defitions that are being given on this forum cannot be logically explained, shall we not challenge them, or shut our eyes like N2I?

Please think about this. Correct salaat is important matter. Very important. People may be comfortable sleeping even though their definition cannot be logically explained. I can't.

So can you please explain to me - in your definition simply - what is salaat?

I mean only respect like you as you only mean respect to me.

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 15:45 (2578 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

I will again focus on two comments from your post.

Comment 1: "Quasim sir said in one thread salaat=follow quran, then the groups that execute commandments of the Quran. So if salaat is this, then how God say 'when salaat is finished'? (62:9). Why is everyone running away from this simple problem??? Waqas sir, gave a different definition understanding the problem with this definition and said 'bond'. But this definition also has problem which I raised."

I think that you are getting hung up on this word: qudiyati. This word has these meanings: "to finish entirely by word/deed, decreed/ordained/pronounced/decide judicially, pass a sentence, create, bring to an end, attained/obtained/accomplished/satisfied, execute, settle, discharge, to make known, reveal."

Sahih translates 62:10 as "And when the prayer has been concluded..."

QXP translates 62:10 as "And when the commands have been understood..."

In both of these examples the use of qudiyati is conditional and is tied to specific activities of Salaat. Every activity has a start and an end. Nowhere in 62:10 it is suggested to end Salaat for good. Salaat has two stages:

  • Establish Salaat through a congrgation - collective responsibilities
  • Follow Salaat as your duty and obligation - individual responsibilities

I do not see where 62:10 is advocating ending Salaat.

Comment 2: "Then Quasim said "By the time the Quran was revealed, both Torat and Injeel had been corrupted". There is also a problem with this statement as the Quran tells the Jews and Christians to go to their books for judgment at the time of the Prophet (5:43, 5:68). So this statement also cannot be correct."

I read both 5:43 and 5:68 as a challenge to Jews and Christians and Allah is giving the prophet guidance to confront the Jews and Christians who are challenging the Quran. There is no indication in the Quran that both Torah and Injeel are at par with the Quran.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 16:41 (2578 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Comment 1:

'qudiati' means finish, bring to an end, to accomplish and in this context means to accomplish or end. I have checked this word with numerous Arabic speaking people. They all agree and nearly all the translations agree.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/62/10/default.htm

If we are going to make our own meanings up to fit our own theory then this is not acceptable. A good point must stand against criticism and make logical sense.

You are saying: "In both of these examples the use of qudiyati is conditional and is tied to specific activities of Salaat".

Where does it say that? Can you please PROVE this from the Quran and not your own interpretations.

The Quran clearly say when the salaat has ended. So if Salat is prayer, this is understandable. If it is in the way you are defining it then it makes no sense.

If salaat = Quranic instructions, this cannot be completed. Unless you say salaat means 'to give quranic instructions'. But no one is defining salaat in this way.

Also you cannot give an author's interpretation as proof of what the Arabic says. QXP is an interpretation NOT a translation. Interpretations are not the words of God.


Comment 2:
If the Quran is expecting Jews and Christians to go back to their books for judgment, how can it be corrupted???? This is a simple question. I didn't say these books are at par with the Quran, please do not misrepresent my question. This has nothing to do with my question. How was Torat and Injeel corrupted at the time of Prophet when Allah is asking Jews and Christian to judge by their own books?

I look forward to your answer please.

Thnx

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 21:03 (2578 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

SA!

Dear brother Ilyas.

I think you're making it a bigger problem(for yourself) to understand than it should be.

Too understand verse 62:10 you must first understand Salaat and its multiple meanings.

Our knowledgeable brother Jawaid Ahmed once posted an explanation of Salaat.
I will allow myself to copy/paste it to this thread:

Salat (by Parwez, Saheb)
This word has occurred in the Quran 108 times in various forms and as Sal'at 67 times. Sal'at is the principle and one of the most important elements of Islam, and has special significance. Also in view of its extensive and repeated use in the Quran, it is necessary to discuss it somewhat in detail with reference to various verses. First its literal meaning:

1. As-Sal'a is the central portion of the backside, the portion from where tail of the animal comes out. Both sides are called Salwan and its plural is Salawatun (Taj).

2. Mosalli is the horse which comes at second place in a race, and is so close to the first- placed that its ears are touching the other's back portion. (The first one is called S'abiq.) It, therefore, means to follow the first one very closely. There is a saying of Ali the fourth caliph, "Sabaqa Rasool-Allah, wa salla Abu-Bakr wa sallasa Omar wa khabatatna fitnatun." Rasool- Allah went away first, followed by Abu-Bakr and then Omar and thereafter chaos overtook us (Taj).

3. According to Taj, Salea Wastala means attachment, to remain stuck. From this reference Raghib says that verse (74/43), "We were not Musalleen," means that they did not follow the Rusul. Accordingly Qurtabi also writes that Sal'at would mean to remain within the bounds of the Laws of Allah, and Tasleah means to walk behind a person so closely that there remains no distance; not to surpass him but remain closely behind.

4. It is very important to understand the relationship of man and Allah. Allah is the One Who is Supreme, Most Perfect and Most Beautiful. He has various Attributes called Asma-ul- Husna and each Attribute is perfect and complete. Allah has also given a personality to man and referred to it as "Roohona" - the Divine Energy (see Rooh). The object or the purpose of man's life is to develop his personality according to the Laws of Allah and inculcate in himself as much of Allah's Attributes as may be humanly possible.
In the first Surah (Al-F'atiha) of the Quran, a Momin is taught to ask of Allah to guide him to Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem (and that, in fact, should be a Momin's purpose of life - to tread the Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem all along - the straight and the balanced path) and in the eleventh Surah (Hud) it is stated that Allah continuously stays at Sira't-Al-Mustaqeem. It transpires from the above that the only straight path a Momin is required to adopt during the course of his life, is the same at which Allah Almighty Himself is going and running this universe. This path can easily be adopted by closely and steadfastly following the dictates of Allah's Book, i.e., the Holy Quran. Hence the basic meaning of Sal'at is complete concordance with the Book of Allah and thereby incorporating in one's own self Allah's most balanced Attributes, of course, as far as is humanly possible.

In verse (24/41) a question is asked: "Have you not pondered over the fact that whatever there is in the universe including the birds with wings spread out, is continuously carrying out their assignments with fullest play of their capabilities and each one of them knows its sphere of duties (Tasbeeh) and the way those are to be carried out (Sal'at)." This obviously means that everything in the universe knows by instinct, what are its duties and how to perform them and what is its destiny. As far as animal world is concerned, they do it by instinct. But if a human being wants to know, what is his Tasbeeh and Sal'at, it is a must for him to have faith in Wahi, through which all these directions containing do's and don'ts are explained. This is Iqamat-As-Sal'at, a special term used in the Quran. To follow the Laws of the Quran is Iqamat-As-Sal'at. This is not possible individually and can only be done collectively; that is why the Quran has used the plural tense for this. It is the responsibility of an Islamic State is to establish this order (22/41), and they do it by mutual consultations (42/38). This system covers all the aspects of life, particularly the economic system. Verse (11/87) is very significant in this regard. It says: "O Shu'aib! does your Sal'at not permit us even to spend our wealth as we desire?" They did not understand as to what type of Sal'at is one which gives directions even in economic matters; they thought Sal'at is just a prayer or some sort of ritual.

In a nutshell it would pose one simple question. Would a person like to decide his affairs according to his desires, wishes or would he surrender before the Laws of Allah? This later position is called Sal'at. Verse (19/59) further clarifies: "they were followed by people who abandoned or negated the Sal'at." Therefore, following the Divine Laws is called Sal'at. As such Ibn-e-Qutaiba says, Sal'at actually means Ad-Deen and Iqamat-As-Sal'at means Iqamat- ud-Deen.

5. As-Salla means fire and firewood. Salla Asaho-Alan-Nar means he straightened and softened his stick by heating it with fire. As such Sal'at would also mean to remove one's defects. Author of Al-Minar says that Sal'at, in fact, is the recognition that one's personality needs guidance of a superior authority. In this way Qurtabi says that Sal'at means obedience to Allah.

6. Another meaning of Sal'at is to subdue and arrest and attract someone's attention (Moheet). This view would explain another meaning of Sal'at which is taming and harnessing the forces operative in the Universe.

7. One meaning of Sal'at is reverence and respect (Taj), i.e., to work for and establish a socio- economic system that proves the greatness of the Sustainer of this universe.

8. In Hebrew dictionary Salawat (plural of Sal'at) is the praying place of Jews. In verse (22/40) this word is used in that context.

9. Sal'at has also been used for a particular ritual. On the whole, whatever a Momin is doing by following the Laws of Allah, without any restrictions of time or formation, is Sal'at. But where ever in the Quran it refers to a particular action, its form and timing has to be fixed. In this regard there are various verses in the Quran, e.g.,

a. Verse (5/6) mentions ablution, which is to be performed before offering Sal'at.

b. Verse (4/43) prohibits the Momineen to perform Sal'at when they are under the influence of intoxication (the Momineen are, however, admonished to refrain from the use of intoxicants 5/90-91).

c. In Surah Al-Jum'aa (62/9-10) it is commanded: "when you are called for the congregation on the day of Jum'aa, you should rush towards Zikr-Allah, putting aside your business - and after Sal'at spread out in the land in search of bounty of Allah and do His Zikr a great deal, so that you may prosper."

d. Some specific timings are also mentioned in the Quran. Verse (17/78) directs the Momineen to establish Sal'at from early morning till late night. In this verse the word "Dalook" has been used which means from morning till evening, thereby denying the earlier superstition that certain times of the day are good or bad. It is further explained in verse (11/114) that Sal'at be established on the two ends of the day and early hours of night. Verses (20/130) and (50/39) mention about Hamd before sunrise and sunset and also late night when
stars start fading (52/49).

e. Verse (24/58) mentions about Sal'at-ul-Fajr and Sal'at-ul-'Ishaa when domestic servants are forbidden from entering private apartments without permission.

f. About recitation during Sal'at, the Quran says that you should understand as to what you are reciting (4/43) and do not recite loudly or in silence but adopt a course in between. The above verses explain that the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Sal'at is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the Laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a Momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word Musalleen is referred to those persons who are at the height of dignity (70/22-35).

g. Salla Alaihe, according to Raghib, means to respect, to give blessings, to encourage, to grow, to nourish, to stop getting decayed. So in those verses of the Quran where this root occurs with 'Ala, it means that Allah and all the heavenly forces encourage you, provide you with necessary means of growth and nourishment and make your efforts bear fruit (33/43). In verse (2/157) it is stated that when the Momineen face difficulties in the enforcement and
establishment of Deen, they do not get disheartened, but remain steadfast and they deserve all the appreciation and encouragement from Allah. This is also mentioned in particular about Rasool-Allah (peace be upon him) himself saying, "Allah and all the heavenly forces help and encourage him in the fulfilment of the Divine program. So, O Jama'at-ul-Momineen, you should also help your Rasool (peace be upon him), by following him and submitting before him." (33/56)

Salaat is 2 things as i understand it.

1- Following in the steps of Allah so as to achieve as good a character as possible.
(This salaat can never end! We must always strive to follow the guidelines of the Quran)

2- The gathering of the community for a meeting(salaat) in which important topics are discussed and solved if possible. (This salaat can end in the sense of a meeting ending. But since salaat never actually ends, as we must, after the meeting, strive to achieve the goals set, which in sense is following the decree set by Allah as a way of respecting Salaat.

The verse is not as complicated as one would think..

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Sunday, June 03, 2012, 23:06 (2578 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Dear brother Hicham, SA.

A long time ago and after long hours of debate, I was informed (rudely) that the concept of Trinity wasn't as complicated as I was making it out to be. Today I am being told the same thing but not rudely - Thanks!.

Please let us stick to the discussion.

Where does the Quran say that salaat = Following in the steps of Allah so as to achieve as good a character as possible????

PLEASE provide me the evidence.

Then you said when talking about gathering "This salaat can end in the sense of a meeting ending. But since salaat never actually ends, as we must, after the meeting, strive to achieve the goals set, which in sense is following the decree set by Allah as a way of respecting Salaat".

So is salaat

(a) a meeting?
(b) Following in the steps of Allah to achieve good character?

It cannot be both things. The same way 3 separate persons cannot be 1 person!!!

I will hope you will not find me disrespecting and simply answer the question or at least consider that this concept 'may' be wrong.

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Monday, June 04, 2012, 01:45 (2578 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Brother Ilyas,

Well meaning people on this forum have tried to answer your question about Salaat through their understanding. It appears to me that you have an intellectual issue with the explanations presented so far. It also appears, and I may be wrong, that you have your own definition of Salaat that you have not shared on the forum.

If you do not agree with the definition of Salaat being presented here, then we agree to disagree, and I wish you the best in your pursuit of finding the answers you are looking for.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Monday, June 04, 2012, 02:14 (2578 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Brother Quasim - I am also well meaning. Please don't think of me as a wolf.

This is a debate. Why are you so worried and ready to close the debate?

Also it is not fair that you decide and speak for everyone else and shut off the debate. You may not have been able to defend your position at all - but that should not stop others from trying and giving their opinions. Please ---Please, please allow them to speak otherwise what is point of having this forum?

I am not being rude to anyone. Only asking genuine questions with the conepts people are sharing.

If you don't want to contribute, please do not contribute. Yes you and I agree to disagree ---- No one is forcing you or me. However, please let others speak.

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Monday, June 04, 2012, 13:02 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear Brother Ilyas,

Clearly Quasim has not decided anything for anyone else or “shut off the debate” as evidenced by the fact that posts on this thread continue. He has posted his own view.

2:139 Say (to the People of the Book), “Do you argue with us concerning God? But He is our Lord as well as your Lord. We are responsible for our deeds and you are responsible for your deeds. And to Him alone we are devoted.”

You have repeatedly stated that you “are not being rude to anyone”. Perhaps you feel others here have been rude to you? I feel everyone has been commenting in a respectful way. However, in some of your posts you have chastised others for providing lengthy answers to your questions. Please respectfully consider that when one has taken the time to prepare detailed responses it could perhaps be construed as rude or flippant when such responses are quickly dismissed as searching for needles in haystacks or as inappropriately long answers to “simple questions”. Note that I am not speaking on behalf of anyone here as each is capable of defending themselves.

As for your question “Where does the Quran say that salaat = Following in the steps of Allah so as to achieve as good a character as possible????”, the entirety of Quran is imploring mankind to use our free will to choose to follow closely God’s guidance as it has been laid out in the Quran. At a personal level this requires us to use our intellectual capacities to our best ability and to nurture aspects of our character which allow us to emulate the many attributes of God as best we can in within our human limitations.

2:153 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Seek help by patiently following the Divine Commands. Certainly, God is with the steadfast.
[Salaat = Following God’s commands closely 2:3. Wa in the middle of this verse merges with Salaat as indicated by ‘God being with the steadfast’, without mentioning Salaat in the end]

I ask you what your current understanding of Salat is. You seem to be searching for answers, and I encourage you to continue to do so. After all, we are all students along the path. However, one must keep an open mind when presented with information which is different or perhaps at odds with one’s current understanding.

Thank you.

--
Salaam and thank you.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Monday, June 04, 2012, 13:22 (2577 days ago) @ Laurie Hamdani

Dear Laurie,

I think your post is unnecessary and patronizing apart from the good question at the end. First - mm I not taking long time to consier and respond? If you don't want me to ask questions here I will leave. Just tell me to leave.

But brushing of criticism from outside doesn't make your theory correct. I am challenging people's understanding and they are not bringing me logical responses.

It is no surprise to me that you will defend the postion on this forum, no surpise at all - but please let us stick to the debate with respect. Yes, you are correct that people have been very respectful so far and I have not said they have not. May Allah reward them for that.

You ask me my understanding of salaat. At the moment in my research, the best understanding is the one that fits all the verses and the one with most 'fit' is the traditional understanding. So there - you have my answer.

But if I am to adopt a NEW understanding, I need to know it is better than the one I have always believed. That is why we are having this discussion and I am so active on this debate. I WANT TO KNOW that the concept people here are correct. At the moment it failing strongly.

Now please let me ask you a question. You said:

"However, one must keep an open mind when presented with information which is different or perhaps at odds with one’s current understanding"

I say the same to you. Also - mean never to 'chastise'. Actually when did I 'chastise' someone. If you show me evidence, I will change and be more careful.

Thnx,

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Monday, June 04, 2012, 06:05 (2578 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

SA!

Brother Ilyas, i'm gonna address a couple of things in this post. In no point am i intending to be rude or anything else.
I simply wish to highlight some things for you.

Firstly, you write
Where does the Quran say that salaat = Following in the steps of Allah so as to achieve as good a character as possible????

Mumeens seek to follow the deen, the decree issued to us by Allah. Deen is following the qu'ran, and salaat is part of the deen, so salaat, essentially deen is to strive for building of an islamic community in which the Qu'ran is the building block and its people are its builders, those who strive to achieve as good a character as possible. This is evidences by the Qu'ran and its message. I cannot point you to one specific verse in the Qu'ran. It's entire message is this, even N2I muslims will tell you this. If you disagree, then i would like you to provide me both lingual and quranic proof that this is not true.

Secondly, you write
Then you said when talking about gathering "This salaat can end in the sense of a meeting ending. But since salaat never actually ends, as we must, after the meeting, strive to achieve the goals set, which in sense is following the decree set by Allah as a way of respecting Salaat".

So is salaat

(a) a meeting?
(b) Following in the steps of Allah to achieve good character?

It cannot be both things. The same way 3 separate persons cannot be 1 person!!!

Now my comments: :-)

Dear brother, firstly you cannot compare the trinity to this. Salaat is a word with a meaning, trinity is believing in absurdities that God enseminated in spirit form, in sense, his own mother, and gave birth to himself.
While Salaat is a word with a meaning..

Brother Ilyas, are you aware that an arabic word, depending on its form, can have as many as 10 meanings depending on the form and its written context?

I, as much as i don't want to, must ask, did you read my entire post? Brother Jawaid gave an excellent explanation of salaat in its forms and context.

Here you were given both lingual and Qu'ranic proof of the word Salaat?
I'm not sure a much simpler answer can be given to you?

You seem very adamant in your conclusion that Salaat can have only one meaning, despite about 10+ posts saying otherwise with the qu'ranic and lingual proof to back it.

I must now ask you of 1 thing.
1. Please give me lingual and qu'ranic proof that Salaat can only mean 1 thing.

I'm a very simpleminded person, so please keep your answer simple! :D

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Monday, June 04, 2012, 13:08 (2577 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

My brother,

I will keep it very simple. I also do not want to be rude. But you must also be willing to listen.

I am on a forum where most people protect each other because they think one way. It is like being on a forum of Sunni's or Shia's where they all think one way.

If you think you have all the answers and you are 100% correct in what you believe, then no need to discuss.

But if you think that there might be better explanation, then put your hand on your heart and please try to listen.

If you make a claim that salaat means X (different from how it is understood by 99.9% of the Muslim world throughout history)- then you have to prove that it means that from the Quran. It is not for me to prove your position. The burden of proof is on you as you are making the claim.

The best explanation of a word is from the Quran's own context, not from Brother Jawaid or someone else's interpretation. If you are going to provide 10 different meanings to a word, then you must provide evidence why you are choosing one as the best fitting over the others.

In today 's world - most Arabic speaking people believe salat to mean certain prayers. Nearly all dictionaries also believe that to be true and if you look at most translations, they also agree. So lets not kid about this and hide this fact under the carpet.

So you have to admit that you are providing an understanding of salaat which is not in the dictionaries or in the spoken language. It is a 'theology'. So it is not for me to provide you lingual or quranic proof of your theology.

I compared Trinity with your concept of salaat as a 'theology'. Pls understand this point. The comparison is fair. Both theology are not in the scriptures - They are being 'pushed' into the scriptures.

I have challenged your concept through the Quran. Your theology doesn't fit all the quran's verses.

So please try to understand first on who the burden of proof is. You are claiming something which not only traditional muslims disagree with but most of the people that follow the quran also disagree with your interpretation of salat. Please let us say it as it is and not hide from the way things actually are.

You are saying salaat = 2 things - so you must provide the evidence. The dictionaries - nearly all dictionaries apart from your school of thought, define it one way. All speaking Arabs define it one way. You are making a theology out of it, so please provide Quranic evidence.

People may not like me here, but this is not a popularity context. If you are going to make a claim, you have to defend it.

Thnx.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Monday, June 04, 2012, 13:24 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

SA

Brother Ilyas.

The majority of muslims also follow hadithes and whatnot. Just because this is so, does not make it right.

When 2 + 2 = 5 for the last century, then it becomes so.

Salaat has meant prayer for what would seem eternity, so is it any wonder that it is understood solely as physical prayers in whichever book you find?

Allah commands us to open up our minds and hearts when we approach the Qu'ran.
Thus if you want to seek answers, you must not only look specific answers, you need to apply the knowledge to the bigger picture.

You have been given all the resources and references needed to create your own proof. We have continously directed you towards the appropriate verses and understandings.

I fear there is ought more we can do to help you.

You say the burden of proof lies with us for our exclamations on our understanding of Salaat.

But dear brother, you are the one proclaiming very adamantly that salaat has only one meaning, and the meanings we are giving you are unfounded and unproven.

If you are so sure of this, then surely the burden of proof lies with you to explain to us why this is so?

Brother Jawaids post very clearly explains salaat in the forms it appears as in the Qu'ran and their specific and contextual meanings.
If you cannot see this or this answer seems insufficient to you.

Then there is nothing more anyone here can do for you.
We have given you all the proof you need plus a little bit more.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by ilyas sarwar, United States, Monday, June 04, 2012, 13:32 (2577 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Dear brother Hicham

"The majority of muslims also follow hadithes and whatnot. Just because this is so, does not make it right".

But brother, you must also provide clear evidence that your theory is right and up to now you are not doing so.

If you think that you have given me "all the proof you need plus a little bit more". Then let me say this. I bear witness in front of ALLAH, that you 'have not provided me logical responses to my questions against your concept'.

Then we will have to agree to disagree and Allah will resolve the issue on the Day of Judgment Insh'Allah'Tala' between us.

Thnx for the time you gave me. I am very honored.

Ilyas

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Monday, June 04, 2012, 15:15 (2577 days ago) @ ilyas sarwar

SA

Dear brother.

One mans logical explanation can be anothers illogical explanation.

I bear witness to Allah that the explanations we have given you here are indeed logical and backed up by the Qu'ran.
So i guess only Allah will be able to tell us the difference...

I personally fear that you may be looking for Atlantis.
Please let us know if you ever find your answer!

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by jawaid ahmed @, Birmingham, uk, Thursday, June 07, 2012, 16:56 (2574 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

A few simple questions about your understanding:-
If Salat means namaz and the rituals that go with it and this is what Allah wants us to do and understand it as such, why did He fail to put the form of it in the Quran?
If the number of prostrations are important, the words to be said, the head turning etc etc, then why are they not there in a simple a,b,c, verse so that we know what to do and when to do it, in the same way He has put the cleansing prior to going to communal salat?
If salat is namaz then how do birds in the air do their salat? [you know the verses]

Those who do rituals that are not in the Quran are failing to lead their lives according to it and are failing to judge by it. If you cannot understand what salat is then in order to maintain your default, ritualised namaz understanding, you need to provide verses of the Quran that support this, otherwise your position is much weaker that those of us who are trying to understand the Quran from the Quran, not our ancestors and the rituals they have passed down to us [1billion Hindus have just as much claim to authenticity as the majority muslims who follow the crowd].

The word salat does not have multiple meanings but different derivatives of the root give various forms to it that are based on “closely following something”. In my understanding we humans need to closely follow the Quran, implement in every aspect of our lives from home to council chambers.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Monday, June 04, 2012, 01:48 (2578 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Brother Hicham,

Thank you for sharing this post by brother Jawaid Ahmed - it is a great post.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Ilyas Niazi, United States, Monday, June 04, 2012, 14:13 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear everyone.

Salat is definitely not finished - but i am certainly finished with this topic. I think Laurie's email has tried to tell me something and yesterday Quasim too.

I respect it.

I think we can never agree on salaat as you all believe what you believe and I believe now that you have no logical proof for what you believe. I am now certain about this.

In the 'bigger picture' we can claim all sorts of things so this debate is endless.

So as sir Quasim said very truly - "we will have to agree to disagree"

I am very honored that you all gave me so much efforts and time, so I thank you all for that and tolerating my repeated questions. Please do not be against me or think that i wanted to 'chastise' any of you. Please forgive me please if you think I did that silly thing. That was never what i meant.

Asalamaalaykum to everyone

Ilyas

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Monday, June 04, 2012, 15:06 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Perhaps chastise was too strong a word. It was not my intent to be patronizing. One thing we must all recognize here is that the written word, while powerful, being devoid of body language and inflection is at times subject to misinterpretation. I hope you do not doubt my sincerity, and I appreciate your participation.

I hope that others who have not voiced themselves on this topic will feel encouraged to do so. Asking questions in the spirit of learning and defending one's understanding are both essential components of intellectual growth.

Best regards :-)

--
Salaam and thank you.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Monday, June 04, 2012, 15:39 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

You said "I think we can never agree on salaat as you all believe what you believe and I believe now that you have no logical proof for what you believe. I am now certain about this."

I am still waiting to learn about your understanding of Salaat.

This topic of Salaat has been discussed in multiple threads on this forum and it always generates a passionate debate. It is important to put forward your thoughts on Salaat for others to review and respond. I feel that people very sincerely tried to answer your questions, but you only took pot shots at the responses without revealing your understanding of Salaat.

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Naushad, Tuesday, June 05, 2012, 08:41 (2577 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Salamun alaikum.

Brother Ilyas,

I have been following this thread with great interest. I would suggest that you enumerate all verses which contain the word salaat or it's derivatives. Consider the verses immediately before & after the listed verses, and do a threadbare analysis of each verse in it's respective context. This way, you can arrive at the best possible understanding. Doing this exercise for yourself will be very helpful. If you can share this understanding with others, many people will have the opportunity to participate in this honest effort. This is a contentious topic but a very important one, so it deserves attention and rational research. Let the Quran speak for itself.

In my experience, sincere and well meaning efforts never go wasted.

Wa salaam,
Naushad

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi, Pakistan, Thursday, June 14, 2012, 15:01 (2567 days ago) @ Ilyas Niazi

Dear Ilyas and Ms Rashid,

I have searched everywhere, people are normally illogical. It is always I am right, you are wrong attitude. Nobody is willing to answer logically.

No doubt people like Allama G.A. Parvaiz and Dr. Shabbir Ahmed have done a great job in trying to interpret the Quran but they are not infallible either. At many places I have felt they have forgotten the oft repeated verse:

54:17 We have made the Qur’an easy to understand. Then, is there any who will learn?

Was the Quran revealed so there should be clerics to explain it?

During all this debate nobody has pointed out the Dr. Shabbir himself used the word 'prayer'

62:10 And when the prayer is ended, disperse freely in the land and seek of God’s bounty. And remember God often so that you may
prosper.

I ask what prayer? Surely it could not be Salaat in the traditional meaning of QXP. 'Salaat/Juma Congregation' would have made sense here.

Although I gave up the traditional namaaz about two years ago, I am still not sure if I have done the right thing or not. The only reason that keeps me from going to even Juma congregations is I don't want to listen to the nonsense of N2I Mullahs or pray behind them. Otherwise, to blame the current state of Muslims because of the five congregational prayers begs the question where has Allah stated that congregational prayer would improve a person's/society's character. I feel the non-implementation of Zakaat, lack of justice, capitalism and following of false deities (the Mullahs and the so called Sufi Saints) is the root cause of current state of Muslims the world over.

I agree Salaat has a broader meaning than just Namaaz, but also feel that some form of prayer has also been prescribed.

Peace!

How can Salat be finished - 62:10??

by Fatima @, uae, Tuesday, January 08, 2013, 12:04 (2359 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

Salam everyone,

I have been reading this post very eagerly.
I appreciate how everyone is trying to explain things in a friendly and non imposing way.

Mr Ilyas,

10: And when this congregation of Salat is over, disperse and go wherever you like in search of livelihood. However do not think that the requirement of your Deen is only to hold such congregations. The laws were conveyed and explained to you so that at all times and in every aspect of life, you should keep them in mind. Now that you have come out in search of livelihood and business, keep these directives in view. Therein lies the key to your success and prosperity. (Let others choose whatever path they like for their success. For your success you should follow the Divine Laws only. This in fact is the only real success).

I would suggest you understand the concept of Slat first and not rust to fit in meanings like a puzzle. Once the concept is clear, then understanding verses in their respective context will make sense to you.

I highly recommend reading:

http://www.aastana.com/books/15_E.PDF

This should answer all your questions.

Peace

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