Salaat query

by Sajid @, Tuesday, June 05, 2012, 06:54 (2545 days ago)

When did it happen, and who was the first person(s)to point out that Salaat was not Nimaaz but rather it's a social gathering meant only for discussing issues faced by Momineen? Is it only a century or two old affair or could it be traced back to the earliest periods of Islam? Any references from medieval sources?

In several threads on Ourbeacon and here it was pointed out that Ahmed bin Hanbal was punished for opposing Salaat as the ritual Nimaaz and that he was punished by the Abbasids for the opposition but what is the basis for this claim, I happened to read several Hadiths from Musnad Ahmed and they didn't suggest what was being claimed here, In fact the Musnad talked of Salaat as the same thing as the ritual we know to be Nimaaz?

Salaat query

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Tuesday, June 05, 2012, 15:54 (2545 days ago) @ Sajid

As you can see from the various discussions on Salaat on this forum and others, the word Salaat has many shades in its meanings depending on the context of the verse.

The issue with the secondary sources of Islam, including the man-made hadith, is that they generally treat Salaat as just meaning prayer. The dumbing down of this fundamental word in the Quran by these secondary sources is what creates the contentious debates.

In the Quran, Salaat is used when referring to gatherings, there is timing of Salaat, there is cleanliness injunctions for Salaat, Salaat is also used together with Zakaat, Salaat is used with Tasbeeh, and many other such uses of Salaat.

The practice of Namaaz does not even begin the implement the true essence of Salaat. This is because the more people read the Quran the less they are going to be satisfied, intellectually and spiritually, with Namaz. Human actions that do not produce goodness for the humanity are wasted efforts.

We encourage people to bring their scholarship to this debate on his forum.

Salaat query

by Jon Charles, Stourbridge, UK, Tuesday, June 05, 2012, 16:10 (2545 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Personally, I do not think this forum entertains debate very well. Yes, posts may appear on the forum unabated, but there is a lot of passive aggression by some including the moderators such as Quasim.

Also, if 'conventional' scholarship is disputed outright by people on this forum, there is no point on having a debate under the banner of 'scholarship'.

However, I do read the threads with interest to see who is brave enough to enter this quite biased readership platform, but also I find solid criticism rebuked quite out of hand.

Take this post as you will, I said my piece. Shalom.

Salaat query

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Tuesday, June 05, 2012, 20:51 (2545 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

aslamaolaikum bhaijan - sometimes a part of 'human action's can just be to worship Allah, so I don't agree with your quote ""Human actions that do not produce goodness for the humanity are wasted efforts""

also you say: "This is because the more people read the Quran the less they are going to be satisfied, intellectually and spiritually"

how can you speak for people like me or anyone other than you? I read my namaz in my language, I connect with Allah and I feel spiritual. I also ready al-quran and I reject hadithes. I don't think it is a wasted effort to praise Allah certain times of the day so that I can worship him. Do you have a problem with worshipping Allah? it seems so. Your reason behind rejecting the concept of 'Namaz' as a connection with Allah certain times of the day is weak in my opinion.
Even if there was no injeel, tawrat, quran, inside I just know it is right to worship one God one - Allah. I don't need scriptures to tell me that. When I have realized He is there, I want to bow to him, I want to prostrate to Him. This desire is inside all of us unless someone is arrogant in my opinion. However, the Quran just happens to confirm it unless you put different meanings to words which no one has used before and no arab speaking person understands.

I think Sajid bhai has asked a good question and I look forward to see if someone can show some evidence. thank you very much aslamaolaikum wrb

Salaat query

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Wednesday, June 06, 2012, 12:08 (2544 days ago) @ Ms Rashid


Dear sister.

No one is questioning yours or others, whom perform namaz, faith or belief in Allah.

You quoted brother Quasim in saying
This is because the more people read the Quran the less they are going to be satisfied, intellectually and spiritually
But you must understand that it is linked to
Human actions that do not produce goodness for the humanity are wasted efforts.

Namaz may, as you say, fulfill you spiritually, but it does not, as far as i can read from your post(this may not be the case, but i do not know you aside from what you say in your post) touch or spark your intellect and understanding of the Quran.

You are content with how namaz works for you. And i think, i cannot speak for anyone else but me, but i can imagine, that everyone here respects that.

But i think that brother Quasim was speaking of the bigger underlying message which the Quran gives. Which in sense is that every effort you make must be for the greater good of humanity, including yourself. In this way one will be satisfied both spiritually, individually and intellectually to Allah.

Namaz does not fulfill this criteria, having 1 million(naturally more) muslims perform psychical prayers have helped no one but the individuals. Human actions that do not produce goodness for the humanity are wasted efforts for the community in the sense of Salaat and how some of us in here understands this particular word.

I don't think anyone in here questions any muslims belief in Allah and how close or unclose they may feel to Allah.

What is being discussed is how we "choose" to show ourselves as muslims, and through this we must first understand the Quran.

Best regards

- a novice in the long road of learning

Salaat query

by Rashid ⌂ @, Sunday, June 10, 2012, 13:40 (2540 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

@Hisham Mauna, Well said indeed, as this .-- –“those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works 18-104!” Y.Ali,--- is the crux of all “actions” that a Momin undertakes under the command of ‘aamanu wa a’millus- salihati’ that is repeated ad infinitum in the Book.

Spirituality that comes from ‘getting a feel good kick’ when one has done one’s duty to God, and that is to some extent annunciated in Chapter 107, with a sneer on those musalleen who perform "worship" for advertisement of their piety but forget their salaat.That then tell us what salaat is.

Dhikar- remembrance of God- can be performed ‘standing, sitting or lying down’3-190, 4-103 and can take any form including the proverbial namaaz, if that satisfies one’s need for the ‘spiritual fix’. There is NO harm at all in it if it does not fall in the sneer of 107.

Salaat query

by Sajid @, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 07:56 (2537 days ago) @ Rashid

I didn't get to reply earlier, so accept my apologies for that. My questions has still not been answered, as much I want Salaat to mean what most members on this forum think it means (i.e its non-ritualistic definition) I still can't convince myself that the whole of Islamic intelligentsia of the medieval era, without exceptions, was bent on corrupting Islamic history/teachings and meanings of Qur'anic terms, and that no SINGLE person neither from the learned ones nor the ordinary people of the time ever saw an invented ritual being incorporated into it, and no one never recorded an objection to the alleged corruption. At least, there must be a basis for the claim, why the term was discovered to mean Divine System or Gathering only in the twentieth century? How does that make the Qur'an a clear book when Muslims have been getting the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of their religion wrong for 1400 years and the overwhelming majority still do so and will continue doing so until God knows when?

Just one single source from the early days of Islam confirming that Salaat is not a ritual might change the way Muslims view the concept. So, is there any, was there no single Momin who could have reported the conspiracy?

Salaat query

by Rashid ⌂ @, Australia, Monday, June 18, 2012, 06:14 (2532 days ago) @ Sajid

I am not versed in scholars’ life and history, but I understand--- and I stand corrected if proved wrong--- that Ahmad Hambal was one who did oppose the concept of namaz, as a worship and as was enforced then as practice.
Looking at some of the ancient practices carried out even today, just one example, the title of Maulaanaa which is so obviously contrary to Quran; and mainly in Sth Asia , the Persian Zone of influence, suggests that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that those who gave counter views on ‘worship’ and other issues, their voices and works were brushed under the carpet by the Churches since this ritual is one of the main stay of their survival and leadership.
Also the fact that even till today we have hand balled the custodian-ship of “religious knowledge” to the operatives of these churches, the clergy, who regurgitate the same old mantras for the gullible to follow unquestioningly!

Salaat query

by Sajid @, Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 07:45 (2531 days ago) @ Rashid

I've already mentioned about Ahmed bin Hanbal perhaps you didn't read the first post; his Musnad describes Salaat as a ritual, I don't know what is the basis for the claim that Ahmed bin Hanbal opposed Salaat as a ritual since the hadiths in his Musnad themselves debunk this claim?

Salaat query

by Rashid ⌂ @, Australia., Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 13:03 (2531 days ago) @ Sajid

My thanks to you.

Salaat query

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Monday, June 18, 2012, 15:53 (2532 days ago) @ Sajid

The fact is that Quran is a clear book - it is every individual's choice to believe in it or not.

Majority, 95% or more, of the people do not think for themselves - they want to be told.

The literacy rate in the muslim-world is one of the lowest of all population groups. Historical evidence available suggests that the literacy rate amongst muslims have always been low barring the golden age starting from the revelation of the Quran and about a 100 years after the prohet's death. The other golden era was the muslim Spain.

If you are illiterate, you do not read the Quran, so you are at the mercy of the mullahs - just look around you.

No reading, no understanding, no opinions, no freedom, no salvation.

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