Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Wednesday, June 06, 2012, 20:20 (2484 days ago)
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Monday, June 11, 2012, 20:01

bhaijan hicham - I was reading this section with information from Parwez Sahib. Can i ask why you missed a major part where Parwez sahib says that:

9: "Sal'at has also been used for a particular RITUAL. On the whole, whatever a Momin is doing by following the Laws of Allah, without any restrictions of time or formation, is Sal'at. But where ever in the Quran it refers to a particular action, its form and timing has to be fixed. In this regard there are various verses in the Quran.

Then a-f examples are given which all refer to the ritual salat.

In f, Parwez sahib says: "The above verses explain that the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well.

So as Parwez Sahib says: a part of the salat can ALSO mean prayer - THE RITUAL, it has form and time has to be fixed. We cannot change what he said and I agree with Parwez Sahib totally.

So why is there not a number 3: in your understanding which says salat can also be a ritual , why have are you missing this out? please can you explain.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Monday, June 11, 2012, 16:37 (2479 days ago) @ Ms Rashid
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Monday, June 11, 2012, 20:02

SA Dear sister.

I'm sorry for being so late with an answer, i've been prepping for my exams, so i haven't been so active lately.

Unfortunatly i cannot say why that part was left out, as i said in my post, it was written by another.

But truth be told, it changes nothing.
You still won't find it anywhere in the Qu'ran how salaat is physically performed.
So salaat as a physical prayer, from what you wrote happens in a congregational aspect.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/congregation

So in this sense, discussing matters in the name of Allah.
Just as one starts a meeting by welcoming, one can perhaps physically start a congregation by holding a simple prayer to Allah and welcoming everyone.

But the difference between salaat and namaaz is that namaaz is and has become ritualistic. Which Salaat is not.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Monday, June 11, 2012, 18:37 (2479 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Monday, June 11, 2012, 20:02

aslamaolaikum Hicham mouna bhaijan - you did see that Parwez sahib makes it crystal clear that salat also refers to a particular RITUAL. you must see it clearly. so it is not a small thing to give his view and leave out a big chunk of it in my view. I know you copied a post but you also gave it as proof so you must have read it too. Why did you not point it out bhai?

you said that al-quran does not tell us how salaat is to be physically performed. but maybe the al-quran doesn't want to tell us how to perform prayer in a certain way. why do we force al-quran to tell us how to pray in a certain way when it does not want to?

If al-quran says 'eat and drink' but does not tell us how to, does that mean that there is no physical eating and drinking? maybe al-quran does not want to 'set' a particular way i.e. using a glass or a bowl, or using knife or fork or eating with your hand.

maybe the simple reason al-quran does NOT tell us 'how to perform salat' is because it doesn't want to set any particular right or wrong way to prostrate and bow to Allah with certain fixed rakats etc etc. What about that? why can that not be correct?

yes, namaz may have become ritualistic as you say, but that is not to say that all aspects of the rigid namaz today are wrong.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Monday, June 11, 2012, 20:12 (2479 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

SA.

And thank god it doesn't tell us how to eat or breathe.. For else we'd be told that eating with your left hand is haram and that if you forget to breathe.. you will die!

You cannot compare basic instinct actions to salaat.
It is in no way the same thing.

I don't consider namaaz to have anything to do with Islam at all..

So i can't see why it has to be related to salaat at all.

And as have been said before.
I am not attacking you or your understanding of Salaat and the physical prayer at all.

If you feel salaat/namaz helps you, then by all means, please continue.
I just don't consider fixed times of prostration as an islamic must.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London, UK, Monday, June 11, 2012, 23:45 (2479 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Salaam Hicham,


I have been following this forum and the Our Beacon Forum as well for some time and am aware of the main differences that you both have with 'mainstream' practices.

I note that in your response to Ms Rashid you say:

"But truth be told, it changes nothing.
You still won't find it anywhere in the Qu'ran how salaat is physically performed."

This changes everything, as it implies that a physical prayer is to be performed daily to God as a regular part of a Mumin's life.By saying that one cannot find how the prayer is to be performed physically from within the Quran, does not diminish the fact that it is a duty.

This would be akin to your definition of salaat which I understand to be a kind of 'meeting'.The same could be said of that opinion as nowhere are you told in the Quran what this 'meeting' must consist of.

In the case of a physical regular prayer..the basic elements have been described, which involve standing, bowing and prostrating thus providing a framework with which to work with.

Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the 'meetings' that you say Mumin's should attend.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 08:37 (2479 days ago) @ Zara

SA

Sister Ms. Rashid and Zara


You both defend the physical prayer very intently and seem to have concluded that i am wrong.

You both however still haven't reffered me to quranic verses that tell us how to perform a physical salaat..

I wait patiently :)

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 14:49 (2478 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna
edited by Laurie Hamdani, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 16:02

(Edited to resolve font issues per Ms Rashid)
--------------------------------------------------
Hicham bhaijan.

the al-quran has NO INTENTION to prescribe you a particular way to perform salat. please understand this

your question is not right. why r u asking the al-quran to tell you how to perform a particular form of salat when the al-quran does not want to do that??

it is blessing that salat is not fixed, exact number of rakats, praying only in Arabic, saying set words - none of this is fixed by al-quran. if a congregations wants to fix

it, it is up to them but a certain way is not prescribed.

if a particular way is not prescribed, it does not mean you have NO DUTY to pray.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 17:59 (2478 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

SA

Ms. Rashid

That doesn't answer anything.

Please explain to me what praying is according to the Qu'ran.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 18:32 (2478 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

there is no question to answer to. you have invented a question which is irrelevant regarding the al-quran.

aslamaolaikum

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 18:52 (2478 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

SA

Ms. Rashid.

You yourself said:

"if a particular way is not prescribed, it does not mean you have NO DUTY to pray"

Is it not fair then that i ask what is "praying"?

You yourself have showed that Parwez Sahib has said: "a part of the salat can ALSO mean prayer - THE RITUAL, it has form and time has to be fixed."

And you said: We cannot change what he said and I agree with Parwez Sahib totally.

Is it then not fair that i ask: What is praying according to the Quran?

I don't find it irrelevant or not a question at all since you are the one arguementing for us as having a duty to pray even though it is not fixed or done in any certain way.

Then was is "praying" according to the Qu'ran?

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Saturday, June 16, 2012, 17:08 (2474 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Salaam,

The ritual prayer has some basic component that I mentioned earlier:

Standing (3:39; 4:102)
Bowing and prostrating (4:102; 22:26; 38:24; 48:29)
Fixed periods for prayers (4.103)

Also a mumin must perform ablution before the prayer (4:43; 5:6) and face a specicific direction for prayer (Qiblah)

There are also other verses that deal with the elements of prayer and taken as a whole, we can get a clear picture that a physical prayer is required from us.

The content of the prayers and how many times we bow or prostrate is not fixed but the fact that the are fixed times for prayer is clear.

I need to use my intellect and see what the 'best fit' would be when we discuss the definition of 'salaat'

Looking at all the verses together, the idea that it is some form of community meeting of mumins striving to implement the Quran is weak in my opinion.

This is because we are asked elewhere in the quran to do this, separately from the command to perform prayers.

Thanks

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Tuesday, June 12, 2012, 17:31 (2478 days ago) @ Zara

I understand the Quran to suggest to us that by serving humanity we find salvation with Allah. The Quran also emphasizes to remember Allah much - sitting, standing, lying down - regardless of a particular form.

Muslims have elevated the rituals of praying and fasting, primarily to gain personal salvation with Allah, at the expense of neglecting the primary injunctions of serving humanity. There are no credible institutions established in the muslim world to serve humanity at large - regardless of religion, culture, and ethnicity.

We, on this forum, believe that the primary function of Salaat is to come together as community or a nation to serve humanity. It is incumbent on the individuals and the Salaat gathering to remember Allah much. How this is done is left up to each community to decide.

Allah is nearer to us than our Vena Cava. Allah has no physical location. Allah's laws are operating with equal force at all locations, in the space time continuum, simultaneously for each one of us. Allah will listen to our prayers irrespective of the forms we affect.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Saturday, June 16, 2012, 18:15 (2474 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Salaam,


"The Quran also emphasizes to remember Allah much - sitting, standing, lying down - regardless of a particular form."

This verse you mention(4.103) is linked to the previous verses (4.101 /102) where the prophet was told how to lead prayers when he and his followers were in danger. They were told not to put down their arms in this situation and that it was not a sin on them to shorten the prayer if they were in danger.
It then proceeds to say:

'Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.'

So after the danger passes, they are required to perform prayers in the normal way.


"Muslims have elevated the rituals of praying and fasting, primarily to gain personal salvation with Allah, at the expense of neglecting the primary injunctions of serving humanity."

Of course this is clearly wrong because the Quran states that we must serve God and humanity to gain salvation. They both go hand in hand and in my opinion have equal importance.

"We, on this forum, believe that the primary function of Salaat is to come together as community or a nation to serve humanity. It is incumbent on the individuals and the Salaat gathering to remember Allah much. How this is done is left up to each community to decide."

The main difference I have is that in my opinion I would say that 'the primary function of Salaat is to come together as community or a nation to serve/worship God.'

I believe that it is a duty on us to serve humanity but that this is mentioned elsewhere but not under the remit of 'salaat'

"Allah will listen to our prayers irrespective of the forms we affect.

I agree with this but do find from within the Quran that there is a congregational aspect to prayer with a need to fulfill some basic requirements.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Saturday, June 16, 2012, 21:06 (2474 days ago) @ Zara

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

We all read the Quran and understand it differently. There are many reasons why our understanding differs. As long as we are willing to express our thoughts without much acrimony then we are all learning from each other.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Tuesday, July 10, 2012, 02:30 (2451 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

We all read the Quran and understand it differently. There are many reasons why our understanding differs. As long as we are willing to express our thoughts without much acrimony then we are all learning from each other.


Salaam,

I do believe that to be true but only to a point. Where things differ so drastically resulting in one group praying and fasting, and the other not then I would say there is a serious problem.

With the basic tenants of Islam (in practical matters) there exists diametric points of view. This is a unacceptable.

The unity and brotherhood that the Quran insists upon and the collective duties it requires of the faithful must not be overlooked.

If everyone took such drastic differing views from one simple text, then we have nothing..it's each to their own really which means that the foundations of the faith are in ruins.

Thanks

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Tuesday, July 10, 2012, 08:07 (2451 days ago) @ Zara

The problem we are faced with is interpreting the Quran with the knowledge we have. When we are faced with something that we have not been taught or made to believe, we naturally reject it; it goes against what we know so it cannot be right. Words have many meanings and when we add the metaphorical/idiomatic ones to this, we can end up with the diverse views you speak of.

How to overcome this? I base my understanding of the Quran on the many verses that use particular words and concepts. To restrict it to the meaning derived from one verse only adds to the problems. For example, the word sujood, you have said it means prostration and so it is part of what is performed during the namaz, but what happens to your understanding of this word when you read the following:-


16:49Walillahi YASJUDU ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi min dabbatin waalmala-ikatu wahum la yastakbiroona

16:50Yakhafoona rabbahum min fawqihim wayafAAaloona ma yu/maroona


This is rendered by Y.Ali as obedience to Allah:-

16:49. And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels: for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
16:50. They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded.

Obey Allah by following His commands. There can be no other explanation of this word other than this, as the physical prostration makes a mockery of the two verses. Hence, whenever we see this word elsewhere we should have in our minds “obedience” instead of putting our heads on the ground.


Please comment on this point as I have had no response to this from anyone else and you believe in:-

“The unity and brotherhood that the Quran insists upon and the collective duties it requires of the faithful must not be overlooked.”

Collective duties are clearly explained in the Quran and they do not mean bowing down with each.

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 00:40 (2450 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk
edited by Quasim Hamdani, Friday, July 13, 2012, 13:37

Salaam,

I am in agreement with you regarding words having many meanings. However when placing them in context,their meanings can be understood.

I am not restricting the word sujood to only one meaning across all verses.
I am suggesting that the word 'sujood' means to prostrate when applied to humans. The sujood when it comes to God means to bow down to Him as an act of worship in the capacity as His servants.

It is clearly not the meaning in the case of 16.49. Also in verse 12:100, Prophet Joseph's parents fall down in prostration to him. Clearly it is not to worship him.

Let me provide another example with the word ‘mutashabih'. Rather different from 'sujood', this word in fact can have opposite meanings depending what context it is being used:

39:23
"God has revealed the best statement, a Book obscure (mutashabihan) ..."

Compare this with:

3:7
"He it is Who has revealed to you the Book: In it are verses clear ('muhkamatun') they are the foundation of the Book and others are obscure ('mutashabihatun')..."

Here in contrast to the word 'muhkamatun' (clear/decisive), 'mutashabihatun' would mean 'obscure'

Now if I applied only one meaning to this word, I could in effect say that in 39.23:

"God has revealed the best statement, a Book with its parts obscure(mutashabihan) ..."

I would therefore be making a complete contradiction to 3:7, in effect, saying that the Quran is an obscure book!


Thanks

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, July 12, 2012, 15:01 (2448 days ago) @ Zara

I agree, in 12:100 Yusuf Ali, amongst others, uses the words “and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him” for sujood. If we take this understanding then this was an act of worship to a human being. Looking at the history of Joseph as revealed in the Quran is there any act that he did that went against Allah? I cannot find one and he went to prison and stayed there for his principles rather than accept a falsehood. So how can this rightly guided Messenger of Allah allow human beings to prostrate to him? I take the meaning here that they became obedient to him; although he was their brother and son, they recognised him as a Messenger and followed his teachings.

We do not have the same problem for sujood as we have for the meaning of ‘mutashabih'. From the root we can see that all the words derived from it have something to do with bowing, etc.:-

Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.
MSJD - parts of a man that are the places of SJD, e.g. forehead/nose/hands/knees/feet etc. Any mode/place/practice in which the act of SJD is done.

I cannot say that sujood does not mean prostrate, it has been translated as such by all and sundry, but in my humble opinion the form of this prostration has been misunderstood/distorted. For example, a king gives an order; his servants bow down as an act of acknowledgement and then carry out the order. If a servant continued to bow down, disregarding the order, the king would not be too pleased as his intention was not get an act of worship but to follow his command. Those who carried out the order had ‘submitted’ to the king, they did “obeisance” to him by completing this.

So what type of servitude/submission does Allah ask of us? I do not accept that an act of obedience for everything in the universe is now meant to be an act of worship for human beings alone. This is most evident when we look at the following verses:-

94.1. Have We not expanded thee thy breast?-
94.2. And removed from thee thy burden
94.3. The which did gall thy back?-
94.4. And raised high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)?
94.5. So, verily, with every difficulty, there is relief:
94.6. Verily, with every difficulty there is relief.
94.7. Therefore, when thou art free (from thine immediate task), STILL LABOUR HARD,
94.8. And to thy Lord turn (all) thy attention.

‘Work hard to please Allah’; no mention of any ritualised acts of devotion. We please Allah, we worship Him, by doing what He has instructed us to do, namely, follow the teachings of the Quran. Our ‘prostration’ should be this and we do not need to express this in a ritualised act. Any benefits that people have come up with for the ritual namaz are not expressed by Allah in the Quran, neither are the form of this practice, so the evidence [or lack of it in the Quran] clearly shows that this is not a requirement for us to do.

We also have the following which clearly states that physical acts are not “righteous acts”:-

2:177It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

If the Quran says that “It is NOT righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West”, then how can we go on to understand that salat/sujood is a physical act of putting our heads on the ground? How can we take the physical prostration understanding of sujood when it is always being obedient to His Commands or the commands of others everywhere else?

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Friday, July 13, 2012, 10:33 (2448 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Salaaam,

It is clear to me that Prophet Joseph's parents were not prostrating out of worship just because there was a physical prostration. He is merely being respected for his position.

We can see this from the context of the story - how his dream manifested itself in reality.

Your example of a king requiring ultimately that his servants obey his orders, not worship him by bowing, is acknowledged.

However, when you are talking about the Creator, it is clear from the Quran that He is to be worshipped, both through physical and practical means because He, unlike the example of the king you gave, is God.

I think that we are required to bow down in worship as God is truly worthy of it (We as his lowly servants should stand in humiliation and praise the Lord) and then continue our day being obedient to Him by following His commands.

It is a twinned effort. One would be meaningless without the other. I feel that you are missing that point.

In all matters, one should look at the verses collectively. The verses you quote do not eliminate the requirement for a physical prayer. They talk about the duties we are expected to fulfil in and for society. In the following verse we can see that praying for the sake of it is no good. It does not mean that praying isn't expected from us.

107:

"..So woe to the worshippers,who are neglectful of their prayers,those who want but) to be seen (of men),and they deny small kindnesses."

Worshipping is for God only and He tells us that none is worthy of Worship but Him.
We are told of the benefits of physical prayer in the Quran, but because you do not believe the definition of 'salaat' to mean that, then you will obviously say:

Any benefits that people have come up with for the ritual namaz are not expressed by Allah in the Quran, neither are the form of this practice, so the evidence [or lack of it in the Quran] clearly shows that this is not a requirement for us to do.

You also acknowledge that sujood means physical bowing. Yet I feel that because you, like other groups, think that there is no benefit for humankind to perform such acts, you use other meanings in its place.

This I feel, conveniently produces a translation that simply caters to your wants and does not reflect reality. The problem begins when we bring our 'nafs' into the equation.

Thanks

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Friday, July 13, 2012, 14:27 (2447 days ago) @ Zara

My nafs is fueled by my thinking mind and I do not see how we can give the meaning of words in the Quran as obedience or closely obeying their programming from Allah for everything other than man! To me our programming comes from an extrinsic source, the Quran, while the rest of creation has it “built in”. Hence, the need to closely follow what Allah has revealed and this does not include rituals. Again, if this was so important the exact form would have been given to us, but it was not for a reason. To get the namaz and form of sujood you do we have to go to extra sources which are not sanctioned by Allah in the Quran [only follow hadith of Allah, the Quran], or our ancestors handing down the practice generation to generation:-

2:170 When it is said unto these (satans), "Follow what God has revealed", they say, "Nay! We follow that wherein we found our ancestors.” "What! Even though their ancestors (and the ancient Imams) were lacking in understanding and were not rightly guided?”
[5:104, 10:78, 11:62, 11:87, 21:53, 34:43, 38:7, 43:23. Hudan and derivatives = Prominent = Bright = Lighted = Clearly visible = Leading = Guidance = Lighthouse = A well-lit road = A landmark of identification in the desert or sea]
2:171 The likeness of such blind followers is that (of a herd of sheep) which hear the shepherd’s call, but hear in it nothing more than a sound and a shout. Deaf, dumb, blind, for they use not their reason and, hence, fail to attain good common sense.
[This is subhuman level of existence 7:179. ‘Unq = Shepherd’s call. Shepherd here pertains to religious leaders who have learned some meaningless words or tenets, and a herd of sheep is the masses that blindly follow them. Kufr embraces blind following in addition to denying or concealing the truth. Perceptual senses alone cannot distinguish human beings from the rest of the Animal Kingdom. It is the data processing or intellectual analysis that makes them distinct]

I am not directing this at you but it is the only way you can justify doing what the Quran does not give form to. My understanding is much closer to the true spirit of the Quran as this continually emphasizes good deeds, not rituals.

Here is Surah 107 as rendered by G.A.Parwez; reflect upon the meaning behind the words used, not just the usual translators interpretation:-

1. Have you ever pondered over the plight of the person who orally submits to Islam but in practice belies it? In other words, his conduct testifies that if Deen is represented by his deeds, then all its claims are wrong. (53:33; 95:7; 75:32-33)
2/3. (The essence of Deen is that no one should in the slightest feel that he is helpless. If for some reason a person’s needs are unfulfilled, then he or she should be helped at once. However) See the attitude of this ‘religionist’. He pushes away the helpless, neither assisting the needy nor inducing others to do so (69:34;89:10).
4. In order to show himself to be a religious person, he offers a lot of prayers. For such people prayers become a source of self-deception because they are deceiving themselves (and others) that they are the virtuous ones.
5/6. They, in fact, are oblivious to the concept of Salat. The objective of Salat is to establish a society in which everyone follows Divine Laws and every human being continues to receive nourishment. People are oblivious to its objective and their consequential responsibilities; and after performing visible rites, they believe they have fulfilled the duties assigned by the Almighty (9:54).
7. The outcome of such self-deception is that while on the one hand they do offer prayers, on the other they take total control of the sources of nourishment. These however should remain open and available, like ever-flowing springs, for all needy people. They are thus depriving the needy of the sources of nourishment (and thus belying Deen).

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Zara, London (UK), Sunday, July 15, 2012, 04:06 (2446 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Salaam,

With respect, please let me repeat that I feel you are missing the point. I think that I was clear enough in my last post.

A two pronged approach is what has been sanctioned. Physical (for God) and practical (for mankind) duties which together encompass our duty to God.

Again, if this was so important the exact form would have been given to us, but it was not for a reason. To get the namaz and form of sujood you do we have to go to extra sources which are not sanctioned by Allah in the Quran [only follow hadith of Allah, the Quran], or our ancestors handing down the practice generation to generation:


Your use of 2:170 is misplaced here. What we say in the prayer and how many times we wish to prostrate is left to us and is not of importance, hence no need for detail. The hadith has nothing to do with it frankly. The fact that the hadith confirm some aspects of the prayer does not mean that it was the source of the practice.

The Quran gave the directives for prayer including the physical element. A form was established by the community and it fulfilled the requirements of the Quran. By passing down a generic congregational form through the generations, is not a violation of the Quran! 2.170 is taking about people not leaving a particular belief system that God is telling them is wrong because of their ancestors adherence to that system.

The form of prayer we have today cannot, by any stretch of the imagination be considered a wrong practice because it in fact encompasses all the directives stated in the Quran:

Ablution
Qibla
Standing,bowing,prostrating
Timings/regularity
Congregational element
Dress code
Tone of voice
Leader of prayer

Here is Surah 107 as rendered by G.A.Parwez; reflect upon the meaning behind the words used, not just the usual translators interpretation:-

You would only be saying this because you are not happy with the 'usual translators interpretation' which in fact would confirm that a phyiscal prayer is one of the requirements of a worshipper. Please note that I say only one of the requirements!

All the verses in the Quran are there for further deliberation and reflection and it is good to get the author's persepective on the what he/she feels the verses mean.

However I think quite franky that the format in which G.A Parvez translated the Quran has a lot to be desired. He would have been better to translate closely to the Arabic verse by verse then in brackets relect his personal thoughts so that the reader can make a clear distinction when God is speaking as opposed to the authour.


Now to come to your definition of salaat. If I am not mistaken, you believe in attending a regular congregational meeting (3/5) times a day in order to discuss establishing the 'Divine system' which requires RITUAL ablution with water and without it, the need to use sand.

Again, if this was so important the exact form would have been given to us, but it was not for a reason.

I can say the same to you: The exact form of your meeting is missing including what should be discussed in it. Is there really a need to meet up to 5 times a day when one meeting would suffice? Why the need to have ritual cleansing before hand if, as you say, the Quran is not about rituals.

The whole concept is frankly a misfit when looking at all the verses together. A lot of time and effort has been taken to change the meanings of well establised words, rendering a Quran that is full of long winded explanations inserted into the text, often without brackets, that have absolutely no warrant from God.

A dangerous path indeed.

Thanks

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Rashid ⌂ @, W.A, Saturday, July 14, 2012, 12:49 (2446 days ago) @ Zara

Decades ago I used to wonder as to why God would waste time in tautology? That is, repeat different words in a sentence which actually mean the same thing.

For example 2-43- Y.Ali- And be steadfast in PRAYERS: Practice regular charity; And BOW DOWN –warkau’--your heads With those who bow down (in worship).

If Salaat was ‘worship’, then it is understood by all that it has one of the rituals in it of BOWING one’s head. Then why is it necessary to ‘repeat the ordinance’ of warkau’—bowing of the head after the use of the word ‘worship’?

It is simple to deduce with a little thought that salaat and zakat are ‘saleh’ righteous practical actions which result in, for humankind’s ‘falah’—goodness and progress? Thus the bowing down of head must be a call to submit –bow down--to the ordinance of salaat and zakat!

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by amirabbas, Iran, Saturday, July 14, 2012, 14:27 (2446 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

11:87 They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord.) Does your way of prayer (Salaat) command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we should give up doing what we like to do with our economy? You want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."

Salaat is forsaking Namaz and every other habit that is contrary, and of no benefit, to the following of the Divine System of Life and instead finding a real solution to our individual and social problems.

G. A. Parwez has said, "the meaning of Sal'at encompasses the congregational prayers as well. Wherever Aqeem-us-Sal'at is referred to, it means the establishment of the whole system, the obedience to the Laws of Allah, and the observance of all the duties expected of a Momin. At other places, it also refers to the offering of prayers as well other duties which are a part of the whole system. For this distinction one has to see the whole verse and the context in which it is brought. Similarly the word Musalleen is referred to those persons who are at the height of dignity (70/22-35)."

Congregational prayers can only be established when our neighbors and other members of society have a basic knowledge and understanding about the Qur'an and of the system they are willing to uphold and follow. In this way they can only make things better and progress in their personalities and lives. What we nowadays do in the name of Salaat and prayer is only a mockery of Islam and violation of Human Rights!

Yes, Allah's Salaat commands us that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced. And that we are not free to do whatever we desire with our resources and economy (personal wealth and effort.)

”O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell
and count myself a king of infinite space.”
- Shakespeare: Hamlet

Yes, we could read our Namaz and think it's the best thing we can do! Now we are free to violate human rights and hoard money and be selfish even more than before!

I cannot believe they used to propagate a saying in our schools days (and many other places they propagate it), "Namaz is the cornerstone of the Deen!" And some used to blame/mock the Deen saying, "what a loose cornerstone has such a Deen that's destructed by a mere fa*t!"

Sorry for saying that; it hurts me!

Is Namaaz Salaat?

by Frank, Friday, October 05, 2012, 18:50 (2363 days ago) @ amirabbas

Salamun Alaikum,

I suggest everyone of you to read the below article on this subject.

http://www.aastana.com/books/15_E.PDF

Franklee

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