Salat

by jawaid ahmed @, Birmingham, uk, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 08:31 (2539 days ago)

I am glad that there is agreement that the Quran does not give any instructions on the method of namaz, leaving it to individuals to sort out what they want to do. It is the same as everything else that the Quran does not give instructions for; it says eat of the good things Allah has provided but does not say how to cook food; it says Allah gives water from the sky but does not say how to drink [with a glass or cupped hands], etc.

PHYSICAL RITUALS

It has been stated that:-
“ maybe the simple reason al-quran does NOT tell us 'how to perform salat' is because it doesn't want to set any particular right or wrong way to prostrate and bow to Allah with certain fixed rakats etc etc. What about that? why can that not be correct?”

The first line of the following verse destroys the notion that physical acts of devotion are something that Allah wants us to do. So the answer to the above question is in the negative; it is not correct for us to make up acts of devotion when He has stated He does not want them!

2:177 IT IS NOT RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT YE TURN YOUR FACES TOWARDS EAST OR WEST; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing

Although the Quran says it is clear we still have the problem of language and its interpretation and understanding. In order to facilitate this, Allah in His infinite Wisdom, has used the method of using words in various ways and situations so we can narrow down the meaning, as best we can.Salat is used many times in the Quran and not once does it state that we should do prostrations or repeat words back to Allah that He gave to us in the Quran! This eliminates the namaz that we have today.

DUAA

Does salat mean we can get into a personal communication with Allah through a “prayer”?
Whenever you want to ask Allah for anything then the Quran always uses the word “duaa” which is totally different to “Salat”. Those who feel a desperate need and require comfort then they can call upon Allah twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, according to:-

Surah 2:186
When My servants ask you concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer (duaa) of every suppliant when he calls on Me: LET THEM ALSO, WITH A WILL, LISTEN TO MY CALL, AND BELIEVE IN ME: THAT THEY MAY WALK IN THE RIGHT WAY.

Allah’s “Call” is the Quran. Seek your future prosperity in its Guidance and secure a life in the hereafter that we may live the right way. When Allah states that He has answered our prayers with the Quran, then the idea of getting anything from Allah through ‘prayers’ is wrong.

REMEMBRANCE OF ALLAH

Does salat mean we can remind ourselves/stay close to Allah through prayers? A teacher tries to impart his knowledge to a student; the student does not revise, messes in class and fails his exams but sends the teacher a Christmas card every year as a means of thanking him! The student ‘remembers’ the teacher, how sweet!

Allah, Allah, Allah; there, I have remembered Allah so I am a very pious, devoted follower of Him?!!!! Reminding ourselves of Allah every day has no benefit but learning what Allah wants us to do and putting it into practice is the only way of “thanking” Him for what He has done for us.

13:28 Those who attain faith through reason, their hearts find rest in the practical remembrance of God, that is, IN FOLLOWING HIS COMMANDS. For, certainly, remembering God (by following His Commands) ensures tranquillity in the hearts.
13:29 THE ABODE OF BLISS IS GUARANTEED TO THOSE WHO ACCEPT THE MESSAGE AND FULFIL THE NEEDS OF OTHERS.

Verse 13:29 says it all.

Having looked at some of the reasons why people pray, we can see that there is nothing to be gained by praying, either from the physical rituals or personal communication.

So what is salat?

24:41 Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
[All creatures know their Salaat, their inborn Divinely programmed instincts. So, they can automatically strive (do their Tasbeeh) in the best way. But humans are not programmed with such inborn instincts. Given free will, they must do their Salaat by following the revealed guidance and thus strive (do Tasbeeh) in the best way]

One of the key verses to understanding what salat is and should not be ignored if you want to do salat properly.

SALAT DOES NOT MEAN:-

Prayer, contact prayer, bond, commitment, closely follow, just social system, race along with each other in good deeds, regular training meeting, etc

SALAT MEANS:-

Part of all of the above terms that are used for a word that does not have a single word to understand its meaning; it is untranslatable but not something that cannot be understood.

When you act as a witness for a will you promise to uphold what you have witnessed, you stay honest and true to this.

When you are at war you follow the commands of your commanding officers; maintaining discipline.

When you are in political power you abide by the laws and regulations of the land.

When you are called to community meetings you will be told what needs to be done for your locality, helping the poor, looking after the needy, etc. Social services that you are responsible for; YOU CANNOT BE A MUSLIM IN ISOLATION, SO THERE IS NO PERSONAL PRAYING FOR PERSONAL SALVATION.

In the home you make sure that all of your family have the means you are able provide for them to create a stable environment, husband and wife working together, children taught right from wrong.

Etc.

And the birds? They follow their programming. They do not think about flying but use their Allah given wings to utilise the Allah given winds to soar in the Allah given skies. They ‘thank’ Allah by doing so and do not bury their heads in the ground like we are told we must do in our prayers; putting our heads down is in the metaphorical direction of hell! When we learn how things work, use them for the benefit of mankind and the rest of the earth, then we are doing our salat.

This requires a foundation that should be accepted by all and is the universal human rights charter provided by Allah to mankind to minimise our effort in attaining them. The Quran. Learn the Quran, base every act and thought on this book and you are doing salat.

Salat

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 18:23 (2539 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed

salaam,

Thanks for the post.

Just a quick note to say 13:28-29 does not say what you quoted. Please remember QXP is primarily an interpretation not a translation.

Salat

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Wednesday, June 13, 2012, 21:44 (2538 days ago) @ Waqas

The QXP and Sahih translations are presented.

QXP:

13:28 Those who attain faith through reason, their hearts find rest in the practical remembrance of God, that is, in following His commands. Remembering God (by following His commands) ensures tranquility in the hearts.

13:29 The abode of bliss is guaranteed to those who accept the message and fulfill the needs of others. [3:13]


Sahih:

13:28 Those who have believed and whose hearts are assured by the remembrance of Allah. Unquestionably, by the remembrance of Allah hearts are assured.

13:29 Those who have believed and done righteous deeds - a good state is theirs and a good return.

Salat

by Rashid ⌂ @, Sunday, June 24, 2012, 14:08 (2528 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Ref “The Koran” translated by J.M. Rodwell and edited by Alan Jones of The Oriental Institute, Oxford ISBN-13 978-1-8421-2609-7”-
“13-28/29; Those who believe, and whose hearts rest securely on the thought of God. What! Shall not mens' hearts repose in the thought of God?
They who believe and do the things that be right—blessedness awaiteth them and a goodly home.”

In the context of the bodily postures, cannot it be said that these postures in prayers/namaz--were there at the time of the Messenger and prior to him and also in use today in many societies as gestures of submission to any higher authority and as in many instances the Quran here too uses the same examples to explain submission to God and God’s laws metaphorically?

Salat

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, June 25, 2012, 07:54 (2527 days ago) @ Rashid

We have to stop thinking that Allah is some sort of king, sitting on a throne requiring our worship, devotion, servitude etc. He is far above all things as the following beautifully explains:-

112:1 Say, "He is God, the One! [He is Unique in His Essence and Attributes and He alone is the Sovereign Law-Giver in the Universe]
112:2 God is Absolutely Independent. [Samad = Absolute, Eternal, Unique, Absolutely Independent Sustainer, Absolutely Independent, Perfect, the Uncaused Cause of all that exists]
112:3 He begets not, nor is He begotten.
112:4 And there is absolutely none like Him."

A king depends on his subjects for his every need so he makes laws which will help keep him in this state and appoints corrupt people to positions of power maintain this. Expoitation.

All Messengers came to do away with this manmade kingly system and to remove the “king in the sky” concept of Allah. When we act upon the commands of Allah we benefit; societies are reformed, no corruption, no exploitation, etc. When we do this the benefits start to become apparent, societies flourish, poverty is eliminated, etc and then our hearts become satisfied that the hard work we have put in has been worthwhile. Jump for joy, salute, bow our heads in humble submissiveness to He that has Guided us, whatever you feel like doing is fine as a means of expressing our gratitude, but this is not a ritual, it is not a set formula, it is not prayer, namaz, pooja or any ritualised acts of worship.

We must understand what benefits us and more importantly society and then implement these commands to get the desired results. Anything else is wishful thinking.

Salat

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Monday, June 25, 2012, 14:42 (2527 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

why should we stop thinking of Allah as a king, sitting on a throne, requiring worship, devotion and servititude etc etc, when these are the very things Allah is saying in al-quran???

So why does the al-quran call Allah king at least five times in al-quran? (e.g. 54:55?)
QXP - 54:55 Seated honorably in the Presence of a Mighty King.

Why does he say that he is on a throne? (arsh?)
QXP - 9:129 (O Messenger) if they turn away, then say, “God is Sufficient for me. There is no god but He. In Him I put my trust. For, He is the Lord of the Tremendous Throne.” [‘Arsh = Throne = Sky = Height = The Throne of His Almightiness of Supreme Control. 7:54, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4, 57:4]

Why does he say that he created man that we may worship him? [51:56]

if Allah swt is using clear types of description for arabs to understand, why should we say he Alllah swt means something different?

I like what someone else said to the type of statement you are making on another link.

"It is the need of the created, rather than the Creator, that after recognizing the Supreme Magnificent and All-Mighty Lord, he submits his will, his life, his death, and everything he possesses to Him! Once he recognizes his Lord and Creator, and the innumerable favors done upon him, his only righteous option would be to serve Him and Him Alone!"

http://www.gowister.com/islam-answer-2785.html

do you want to me to stop thinking about what the al-quran is clearly saying? I do not agree with your understanding. i cannot find any truth or evidence in your statements and I also follow al-quran.

Salat

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, June 25, 2012, 16:14 (2527 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

I have broken your response to my post down and answered each point I felt was relevant:-

[why should we stop thinking of Allah as a king, sitting on a throne, requiring worship, devotion and servititude etc etc, when these are the very things Allah is saying in al-quran???
So why does the al-quran call Allah king at least five times in al-quran? (e.g. 54:55?)
QXP - 54:55 Seated honorably in the Presence of a Mighty King.]

Miim-Lam-Kaf = to rule/command/reign, be capable, to control, power/authority, king, kingdom.

The word King has a mental image but from the Quran maalik means that God has complete right and authority , it is also means that the system of the universe proceeds rightly and according to his laws and not for some oppressive purpose so that everything continues to get what is essential for its existence; Rahman and Raheem, not Raja and Royalty.

[Why does he say that he is on a throne? (arsh?)
QXP - 9:129 (O Messenger) if they turn away, then say, “God is Sufficient for me. There is no god but He. In Him I put my trust. For, He is the Lord of the Tremendous Throne.” [‘Arsh = Throne = Sky = Height = The Throne of His Almightiness of Supreme Control. 7:54, 10:3, 13:2, 20:5, 25:59, 32:4, 57:4]]

Ayn-Ra-Shiin = to construct/build, make trellis (for grape-wine), make a vine-stalk, roof, raise (a house or structure), settle. 'arshun - throne, arbour, pavillion, roof, power, dominion, sovereignty.

You missed the explanation by Dr Shabbir regarding ARSH. Allah has dominion over all He created. Allah is not limited to time or space so how can He be seated on a throne?

[Why does he say that he created man that we may worship him? [51:56]]

Ayn-Ba-Dal = serve, worship, adore, venerate, accept the impression of a thing, obey with submissiveness or humility, approve, apply, devote, obedience, slave, keep to inseparably, subdue, assemble together, enslave.

Ibadat is incorrectly understood as worship as this denotes ritual acts. From the Quran we see that we should understand this term as obey His Commands, which are in the Quran.

Dr Shabbir’s glossary has this:-
Ibadah = Obeying God by serving His creation = Worship? - Applies in the sense of „worship‟ to idols only.


[if Allah swt is using clear types of description for arabs to understand, why should we say he Alllah swt means something different?]

How many Arabs are following the Quran? Wahabis? Arabic speaking Egyptians doing female genital mutilation? No understanding of the Quran and ritualised, idol worshipping mentalities throughout!

[I like what someone else said to the type of statement you are making on another link.
"It is the need of the created, rather than the Creator, that after recognizing the Supreme Magnificent and All-Mighty Lord, he submits his will, his life, his death, and everything he possesses to Him! Once he recognizes his Lord and Creator, and the innumerable favors done upon him, his only righteous option would be to serve Him and Him Alone!"
http://www.gowister.com/islam-answer-2785.html
do you want to me to stop thinking about what the al-quran is clearly saying? I do not agree with your understanding. i cannot find any truth or evidence in your statements and I also follow al-quran.]

I too serve Allah and Allah alone but we should serve Allah but in what sense? Service to a teacher at school is to understand what he teaches you and pass your exams. No amount of “praising” the teacher is going to get a pass mark [unless you are in Pakistan and make a sizeable contribution to their bank account]. We serve Allah by doing what He says in the Quran and no amount of bida rituals invented by man is going to get us into heaven.

We bring Allah down to our human level when we look upon Him as a king in the earthly sense, instead we should be elevating ourselves nearer to Him [as humanly as possible].

Salat

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Monday, June 25, 2012, 19:06 (2527 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

I will like to ask a question that Sajid bhaijan also asked because you are saying that the rituals were bida and 'invented by man' .

"When did it happen, and who was the first person(s)to point out that Salaat was not Nimaaz but rather it's a social gathering meant only for discussing issues faced by Momineen? Is it only a century or two old affair or could it be traced back to the earliest periods of Islam? Any references from medieval sources?"

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=1670

in all the lies of hadith, where all kinds of nonsense is also reported as well as wise words, there must be some recording that salat meant what you are saying it means and that it was never a ritual but something else. Is there some evidence or was this all a very very big conspiracy that suddenly everyone got involved in?

please answer this question. we can all make big big claims. please provide your evidence to help me and others.

Salat

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 09:16 (2526 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more.

Thank you for your question. Authentic history has been distorted, destroyed or hidden away by those with vested interests. For instance, Ibn Khaldun in his history of the world describes how fairy tales [hadith] have been created around individuals and historical events which pervert what really happened. He describes evolution which was one reason why his book was banned from Al Azhar university in Egypt. He also has some forty pages of his works ‘lost’. Why, I ask myself?

There is a book in Iran that was written 20 years after the so called karbala events yet fails to mention this! It says that Yazid was a great benefactor of Hussain with no hint of the conflict between him and the family of the Messenger . History was distorted by the Ummayads who were heavily influenced by Zoroastrian thought. If history can be lost, why not concepts like salat? Remember, it only takes on generation to fall into falsehood for the next to continue the practice!

Have you studied the earliest history of Islam where you have the Mutazillah movement demanding, no imploring, the masses to use logic and reason in everything they do and not take anything on blind faith? Yes, they departed from this at times, but they challenged the falsehoods that had crept into Islamic thought 1200 years ago that were accepted as the ‘norm’!

We could argue ad infinitum about the truth or otherwise of historical books, so the best example is staring us in the face: THE QURAN. No set of ritualised actions are described in this glorious book regarding the manmade namaz Muslims do. It gives detailed instructions regarding ablution prior to Salat but does not give one single verse out 6000 or so describing such an important act that MUST be done five times a day in order for us to get into heaven! Now Allah may well be having a laugh at us, telling us how to wash but not how to pray, but the laugh is on us. Nowhere are the acts described completely in the hadith literature either; the books of Salat by Bukhari do not have them, so we are left with following what our ancestors have given us. As proof, please read them and see how much of these have to do with Salat and how much with other nonsense:-

http://ahadith.co.uk/chapter.php?cid=32

In order to eliminate the inconsistencies in our beliefs and acts we must do what the Quran says, judge everything by this book ALONE. In order to eliminate the possible misunderstanding that can easily occur when we use language, verbal as well as written, we must always look elsewhere in the Quran for words we are interested in and how they are used.

I have asked this question ad nauseum, and received only one answer, we do not know how or what their salat is! Maybe you can provide an answer? If your namaz is correct then you must be able to describe the bird namaz from the following:-

24:41Alam tara anna Allaha yusabbihu lahu man fee alssamawati waal-ardi waalttayru saffatin kullun qad AAalima SALATAHU WATASBEEHAHU waAllahu AAaleemun bima yafAAaloona

24:41 Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their SALAAT AND TASBEEH (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.

How do ALL beings , including their shadows, bow [do sujood] to Allah?:-
13:15 Walillahi YASJUDU man fee alssamawati waal-ardi tawAAan wakarhan wathilaluhum bialghuduwwi waal-asali
13:15 And before God bow, willingly or unwillingly, all beings that are in the heavens and earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and evenings. [3:82, 41:11]


I will give you my understanding. The salat of the entire universe is to go along with their programming. Everything acts in accordance with their ‘natures’; matter, heavenly bodies, move according to gravity, heat goes from hot to cold, Moon goes around earth, water flows down hill, birds flap their wings and use the air to fly. Remove the wings, or the air, birds will not fly. Man has been given the gift of naming, he can think what is going on and reason why it is going on and utilise everything for his benefit [for all people, not just himself]. But man can also please himself! He can act against his best interest, he can enslave others, create fires that destroy, weapons that kill, etc. When he goes against his best interest he creates a hell for himself. When he does things in his best interest he creates a heaven. Birds fly in columns, so we must act appropriately in order to achieve anything good and lasting. Salat is programming ourselves according to what Allah has given us and act upon this, with no deviation [mistakes happen, but we should not deliberately go against them; if we deviate the result will be loss, just like fire leaves only ashes]. Salat makes our journey through life much more pleasant and economises our efforts. Salat is being conscious of the Quran in everything we do.

Salat and Karbalaa

by Rashid ⌂ @, Thursday, June 28, 2012, 02:24 (2524 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Thank you Jawaid Ahmed for openning a new issue.
With reference to the second paragraph, and using the faculty given to us to ‘question’ opens up a new chapter for a simple minded person:-
-How come Ali, a first cousin and Son-in-law of the messenger, and Muawiyah a first generation kin and companion of the Messenger were at loggerheads, in spite of Quran’s statement to the contrary that ‘their hearts were filled with love’?!

-How come Hasan and Hussain, the two grand children of the Messenger, who grew up playing in his lap would act so differently in the same circumstances of the conflict with Umiyads? Hasan’s withdrawal gave about twenty years of peace to the Muslim community, whereas young Hussain’s acrimonious demand for Khilafat from Yazid ended up in the widest and un-breachable schism in the Muslim world till today?!

-How come that Hassan acted completely contrary to the advice given to him by his own kith and kin not to go to Iraq?!

-How come that Hassan was accompanied by only 72 people, and that too mostly his own immediate family members including a babe in arms, to go on such a dangerous expedition to face an Army?!

-How come there were 90,000 to 900,000 Muslims there in just a short period of about 50 years of early Muslim history to be killed in the conflict?!

-How come in spite of the above then the early Muslims were able to subdue such a large part of the lands from East to West if they were busy killing each other in such large numbers?!

It looks as if :-
Zaraa si baat thhee undesha-e-ajam nay jisay,
Barhaa diyaa hai faqat zaeb-e-daastaan kay liye!?
Both sides of the schism should use their God given faculty to question, particularly the traditions and history written by vested interests!

Salat and Karbalaa

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, June 28, 2012, 07:33 (2524 days ago) @ Rashid

History is in the hands of the victors. The Abbassis overthrew and murdered the Ummayad and then re-engineered history to show that they had been denied leadership and the Ummayad were the murderer’s of the Mesenger’s family. They slaughtered all of the members of the ruling family, except one, Abdur Rehman, who went on to found the glorious era in Spain, so we can see the calibre of the people overthrown!
If you want to get further information about the influence of the Persian, Zoroastrians, on the Muslims, read the following, it is only partly presented here and I recommend you buy the book or find a complete download somewhere:-

Conspiracies Against the Quran by Dr. Syed Abdul Wadud

http://deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/conspiracies-against-the-quran.pdf

Salat and Karbalaa

by drsam ⌂ @, Vadodara, Gujarat, India, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 03:26 (2505 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

as far as i know

KARABALA NEVER HAPPENED

Salat and Karbalaa

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 15:04 (2505 days ago) @ drsam

Peace, and thank you for participating in Salaat Forum.

Kindly note the Forum Policy which asks that you provide your location and refrain from use of all upper-case writing. You can use the bold, color, size, and other editing tools for enhancement or emphasis within your posts.

--
Salaam and thank you.

Salat and Karbalaa

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Tuesday, July 17, 2012, 15:17 (2505 days ago) @ drsam

I agree. As I said, history is in the hands of the victors.

Salat

by Rashid ⌂ @, Tuesday, June 26, 2012, 11:33 (2526 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

I don’t know of the first person to question namaz, but an 8th? century Punjabi Sufi poet Bulleh Shah put it so:-
“Baed Quran’ parh parh thhakay
Sujday kardeyan’ ghas gaye matthay
nah Rub TEERATH nah Rub MAKKAY!”
Got tired of repeated-chant-readings of Quran,
Bruised foreheads in prostrations,
God lives neither in Teerath nor in Makkah!

Salat

by Mohammad IL, Thursday, June 28, 2012, 23:01 (2523 days ago) @ Rashid

This Peer of Pakistan is wrongly telling things about Muslims or Islam. Muslims have to read Quran & Follow the commandments , Sajda O
on the day of Jumah is to be performed for Zikrillah. Lastly Muslims don't go to Kaaba In search of God but for mutual consultation to sort out problems of Muslims all over the world.

Salat

by Abolade. @, U S A, Sunday, November 04, 2012, 17:38 (2395 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed

Peace be to you Br.Jawad,how do you explain Sura4:101-103 based on what you said regarding Salat,as I said before translations can be manipulated to infer an intended meaning according to a school of thought,also Sura11:114?

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