4:23-24

by Sajid @, Friday, June 15, 2012, 08:06 (1957 days ago)

QXP

4:23

"The following women are prohibited for you in marriage: Your mothers, daughters, sisters, father's sisters, mother's sisters, brother's daughters, sister's daughters, foster-mothers who have ever nursed you, foster-sisters, your wives' mothers, your step-daughters, unless you have divorced their mother without being intimate with her. Also forbidden are women who have ever been the wives of your sons. You are not allowed to keep two sisters in wedlock at one time except what has already happened in the past. God is Forgiving, Merciful."

4:24

"Also forbidden to you are women who are already married, except those women who have sought asylum with you against their disbelieving husbands at war with you (60:10). This is God's Ordinance binding upon you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, with mutual consent, as confirmed by giving her a generous marital gift or dowry. You shall seek them in honest wedlock and let marriage be a fortress of chastity for the husband and wife. You shall maintain morality and go not near adultery (17:32). You like to marry women for a better quality of life, so give them their portions as a duty. And there is nothing wrong in adjusting the sum with mutual agreement after the duty has been done. These laws are given to you by God, the Knower, the Wise."


The women prohibited for marriage have been identified in the above verses and it has been stated that all other categories are allowed for marriage. I see that verse 4:23 has not included grandparents / grandchildren in it, I would like to know the reason behind that, or has it been said through implication, or said elsewhere in the Qur'an?

4:23-24

by jawaid ahmed @, Birmingham, uk, Friday, June 15, 2012, 14:15 (1957 days ago) @ Sajid

My personal opinion on this [as I have searched the Quran and not found any reference to grandparents] is that mothers and grandmothers are considered the same, as are children and grandchildren. This applies to inheritance as well so if a man loses a son his grandson takes the share his father would have had [this applies to granddaughters as well through any parent]

Searching the internet has found some sites quoting grandmother marriage prohibitions but no Quran references [only hadith/sunnah/scholar fatwa sources]

4:23-24

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Friday, June 15, 2012, 14:53 (1957 days ago) @ Sajid

salaam/peace,

A reason could be it is not mentioned is because it is allowed.

It would be rare, e.g. assuming a 16yr old age of marriage and birth shortly after, could give a scenario where a grandparent is 17+17+16 = 50 and the potential marital grandson/daughter is 16.

4:23-24

by Ms Rashid, Atlanta, US, Saturday, June 16, 2012, 12:14 (1956 days ago) @ Waqas

i am sorry ... but this is the most troubling answer I so far read on this forum. are you saying the al-quran allows incest? no matter what any book says or however u look at this, there are basic values that are coded into us as human beings which we use to judge anything including al-quran. this clearly goes against my human coding. how can anyone have sex with their grandmother by marriage? the woman who gave birth to your mother? oh allah - pls rescue me from this analysis. there is something really wrong with the way the al-quran is being studied here by some because the al-quran can never allow incest if it is the true word of Allah.

I have been very hurt with your suggestion and very deeply affected. i feel so troubling and hurt by such a suggestion. Jawaid bhaijan has a better answer. thank you. but there may be better answers. may Allah show us those answers inshaa'llah ta'ala. ameen.

4:23-24

by Sajid @, Sunday, June 17, 2012, 07:39 (1955 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

So, it is one of those verses that is open to subjective interpretations? I personally agree with Waqas' opinion even though it may appear unacceptable to our pre-established notions of allowed/prohibited, either that OR we have to accept that certain parts of the Qur'an cannot be explained without consulting Hadiths/Sunnah and were left out to emphasize the status of Hadiths/Sunnah, if Qur'an really meant it to be forbidden, all it would take is to add only few additional words "your granddaughters / your grandmothers" to include the prohibition, but that is not the case. Mother and father only mean mother and father, the terms here aren't generic as the the rest of the terms pinpoint specific relations. If they were intended to be generic then there would have been no need to add "aunts", and "fostermothers", "wives mothers" since by the generic sense of the word "mother" they would already have been connotated.

_


Ms Rashid

Even the 7th century Arabs had their own "basic coded values"; they considered marriage with the wife of adopted son unacceptable, yet this "basic coded value" was abolished by the Qur'an.

4:23-24

by Zara, London (UK), Monday, June 18, 2012, 14:25 (1954 days ago) @ Sajid

Salaam,


Are you saying then that if the Quran does not state all prohibitions, then certain acts are allowed?

If so, then there are many things that you are free to indulge in because they are not listed in the Quran.

I suppose that if the Quran did not mention anything about garments, then you would advocate praying with no clothes on?

4:23-24

by Sajid @, Tuesday, June 19, 2012, 07:34 (1953 days ago) @ Zara

Salaam

When the Qur'an identifies things, with respect to a certain matter, that it intends to be prohibited and adds at the end that ALL OTHER THINGS except for the mentioned ones ARE allowed what else are you going to make of this than that the Qur'an does mean that things other than the identified ones are allowed?

So, if the Qur'an leaves out grandmothers / granddaughters out of the list of prohibitions and yet means them to be prohibited why can't we say the same about first cousins?

4:23-24

by Zara, London (UK), Tuesday, July 10, 2012, 02:13 (1932 days ago) @ Sajid

Salaam,

I am most relieved and grateful that God has listed prohibitions in marriage when I see this thread.

You say that:
'I personally agree with Waqas' opinion even though it may appear unacceptable to our pre-established notions of allowed/prohibited,..'

Thank goodness sisters were included in the list then!

The key here was to investigate the word 'ummahātukum' further. The remit of this word can be seen fully when looking at the Arabic, not an English translation.

Grandmothers and grandaughters and indeed further generations upwards and downwards are including by inference.There was no need to introduce specifics for this group as the Arabic in this context is all inclusive.

If not being allowed to marry your wife's mother(who has no biological link to you has been included), God would not leave out a direct blood line relation such as grandmother/grandaughter.

Thanks.

4:23-24

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Sunday, June 17, 2012, 08:37 (1955 days ago) @ Ms Rashid

peace/salaam,

Are you honestly troubled/hurt by someone floating a theoretical possibility when discussing Quran?

Personally, I prefer to get all options, then determine, by way of evidence, which one fits.

I have not researched this topic so haven't concluded anything. If you have tested the options, that's fine. Each to their own.

4:23-24

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Monday, June 18, 2012, 15:18 (1954 days ago) @ Waqas

Even thou the Quran does not explicitly say it, I understand that the prohibitions in verse 4:23 and 4:24 are more than just a particular relation, they stretch up and down that lineage.

The 'mother' is prohibited as a marriageable person - every relation associated with 'mother' is also prohibited. Same goes for other prohibitions.

4:23-24

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi, Pakistan, Wednesday, June 27, 2012, 13:22 (1945 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

I agree with Hamdani Bhai.

When parents are prohibited, and so are brothers and sisters of parents, then how could parents of parents (grandparents) who are the closest in blood relations be allowed.

Peace!

4:23-24

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Wednesday, July 18, 2012, 17:51 (1923 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA.

I may be a bit slow.
Or i just can't make heads/tails out of this.

But does this prohibition effectively eliminate cousin marriages which have been running almost rampant in most muslim countries?

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

4:23-24 - Grandparents are parents

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 00:36 (1913 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

WA (Don't know if you are a brother or a sister. Hicham is probably a male name while Mouna, at our place is almost always used for ladies)

Coming to your inference... Can you please elaborate how cousin marriages are prohibited? Just because grandparents are not mentioned doesn't imply that cousins would also be forbidden for marriage.

Grandparents are also parents in a way; they are direct ascendants of one, cousins come from a lineage that has branched out. An example that cannot be disputed is glaring us in our face; the marriage of Ali(RA) and Fatima(RA)! Ali Bin Abu Talib(RA) and Muhammad Bin Abdullah(S) were not from the same father but had the same grandfather Abdul Muttalib. The prohibition of uncles and aunts is only valid when they have the same parent(s).

In my humble opinion, grandparents and great grandparents all come under the category of parents and so would be the case of their brothers and sisters but not their brothers and sisters offspring. Where lineage branched out, the prohibition ends.

Another way to look at it is grandparents are parents of parents - same lineage. Cousins are not brothers or sisters of one, or of parents - a new lineage starts from them.

This is what makes me wonder why Shias include Ali Bin Abi Talib (RA) in their so called Panjtan Pak. They give him the greatest importance of all, although he is not even a descendant of Muhammad(S). He is a descendant of The Exalted Prophet's grandfather. How then do Shias include Hadhrat Ali(RA) in Aal-e-Muhammad, which is a great distortion of facts!

Quran is very clear about who one can or cannot marry; we are just trying to complicate things by using twisted logic.

Sorry if I said anything that has offended you for that is not my intention.

Thanks.

4:23-24 - Grandparents are parents

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 08:57 (1913 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA!

I am sorry for being unclear.

What i meant in my post was that if the prohibitions made in the Qu'ran also included cousin marriages.

I never stated that cousin marriages were a part of the qu'ranic prohibitions.


It's been some days since i posted that, and i can now see that cousin marriages aren't prohibited by the Qu'ran.

Although there scientifically speaking, seems to be higher chance of developing some illnesses the closer related you are to your partner in terms of genes.

Which in turn can seem baffling why it then wouldn't be prohibited.
This is not linked to that some diseases only occur through cousin marriages.
But if the chances of getting some genetic disorders are higher, then one could ask themselfes why Allah, most wise, would not prohibit this type of marriage.
Naturally assuming the scientific statistics hold true.

I am indeed a male.
Hicham is my first name.
Mouna is my family name.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

4:23-24 - Grandparents are parents

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Sunday, July 29, 2012, 19:28 (1912 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Dear Brother,

Allah is surely all-wise. As you rightly said there is a chance of developing genetic disorder in first-cousin marriages, it is only a chance that gets more probable if the practice is continued from generation to generation. But then Allah has also blessed us with intellect to be cautious. There are chances of getting high cholesterol by eating many of the good food items; we take many chances everyday, so human discretion is required. I think Allah has prescribed moderation in all we do.

Just my two cents...

Salamun Alaykum!

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