Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Thursday, August 02, 2012, 09:42 (1907 days ago)

Nobody seems to reply to my posts on ourbeacon.com, so I am posting the same here in hope somebody can satisfy me logically. It was in reply to Jawaid Ahmad, but of course everybody is free to give their opinion.


Dear Brother Jawaid,

Salamun Alaykum!

I mostly agree with your inference on the ritual namaz, and gave it up two years ago. My sole reason to stop offering ritualistic Namaz was lack of proper instruction in The Glorious Book of God. I do not even attend the Jum'a congregations as I cannot go and take part in activities that I consider anti-Quranic, and follow an Imam upon who I consider the verse "Summum bukmun umyun fahum la yarjiun" applies. Like yourself, I cannot let myself be a hypocrite; I live in Pakistan, so am looked down upon with hatred for not offering Namaz. When someone argues, I never fail to word my opinion in a hostile environment full of religious dogmas, though I do not take part in others' arguments.

There are, however, still some doubts that I have found no clear answer to because some of the objections seem to be based on how you look at the picture. I'll write them as they come to my mind:

1. Namaz does not make one pious of itself; I agree, but it does help create self-discipline.
2. It is written by Dr. Shabbir Ahmad that the ritual Namaz was contrived during the period when the Islamic capital was shifted to Persian territories. I can agree with that but it seems like something is amiss here. Even if the Khalifas in Kufa (or wherever) forced people to adapt a new ritual, what about those who resided in Makkah and Madina? Were there no true believers left who objected to the sudden change in the application of the commandments of the Qur'an? Historically, there should have been a great war between the conformists and non-conformists. Is it sound logic to say Islam was in perfect shape till the capital was not shifted from Madina? What happened to the citizens of Madinah? How and why did they give up on the true Islam?
3. If one-rakat ritual was observed during mosque congregations during the times of The Prophet (S) there has to be at least one remnant Islamic society where the actual practice continued, but we find none today.
4. When you are in a post-coital state and have not taken a bath, you could still be in a clean state and unoffensive to others in the congregation. Furthermore, why the need for ablution to prepare for congregational prayer (5:6)? Are we missing something here to prove ourselves right? What is the need for ablution, the method of which is actually prescribed in the Quran? When we go to social gatherings, don't we go in a clean state and well groomed? Why then do we need to do wudu or take the ceremonial bath after coition before entering a congregation in a mosque?
5. While the above objections do come to mind and I fail to find a satisfactory answer, I disagree on one point totally: Reading words of God back to Him! Are we reading words of God back to Him or reading His words for ourselves to be reminded of what He has ordained? As I said, it depends on how you look at a picture, especially an abstract one.

I hope you or somebody else can come up with satisfactory logical arguments.

Thanks.

Syed Ijlal Hussain

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, August 02, 2012, 14:56 (1907 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

Patience!I am working on it. Multiple questions cannot be answered with yes/no.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, August 02, 2012, 15:43 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

[1. Namaz does not make one pious of itself; I agree, but it does help create self-discipline.]

I could do yoga every day and discipline myself this way! A flippant remark but piousness comes from understanding the Quran which positively affects your character, not the number of prostrations, not even “humbleness” which is said to happen by those who put their heads on the ground.

[2. It is written by Dr. Shabbir Ahmad that the ritual Namaz was contrived during the period when the Islamic capital was shifted to Persian territories. I can agree with that but it seems like something is amiss here. Even if the Khalifas in Kufa (or wherever) forced people to adapt a new ritual, what about those who resided in Makkah and Madina? Were there no true believers left who objected to the sudden change in the application of the commandments of the Qur'an? Historically, there should have been a great war between the conformists and non-conformists. Is it sound logic to say Islam was in perfect shape till the capital was not shifted from Madina? What happened to the citizens of Madinah? How and why did they give up on the true Islam?]

There was always wars going on between Muslims, who knows why they fought but if one group succeeded another it is quite possible to impose their viewpoints on society. It only takes one generation to change a practice for the next to think it is from their traditions. Try reading the following, Conspiracies Against The Quran, by Dr. Syed Abdul Wadud, to get a flavour of what was done:-

http://www.deenresearchcenter.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=1UzXnu7SDNw%3D&tabid=58...


[3. If one-rakat ritual was observed during mosque congregations during the times of The Prophet (S) there has to be at least one remnant Islamic society where the actual practice continued, but we find none today. ]

History is in the hands of the victors. There was an early movement called the Kharijites who were particularly violent against what they perceived as un Islamic practices, but they innovated themselves!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharijites

Look at how the Shia/Sunni split so easily occurred, so something wrong was going on from the early days.

This answers Q2 as well, since the kharijites came up against the Mutazila, different schools of thought:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu'tazila

[4. When you are in a post-coital state and have not taken a bath, you could still be in a clean state and unoffensive to others in the congregation. Furthermore, why the need for ablution to prepare for congregational prayer (5:6)? Are we missing something here to prove ourselves right? What is the need for ablution, the method of which is actually prescribed in the Quran? When we go to social gatherings, don't we go in a clean state and well groomed? Why then do we need to do wudu or take the ceremonial bath after coition before entering a congregation in a mosque? ]

It seems unusual to me that Allah would tell us to wash before attending Salat yet leave out the ritualised details most Muslims believe are the requirement for this. Either that, or we gather in the mosques to debate the issues society faces and solve them; always keeping in mind the rules, regulations, principles etc of the Quran. To “closely follow” the Quran in every aspect of our lives is going salat.

Ablution can be seen to be a mental cleansing as well, clearing your head of falsehood, doing right acts [hence cleaning our arms] and walking on the straight path [cleaning feet]. It is not just about physical purity when gatherings occur, which is important as well.

[5. While the above objections do come to mind and I fail to find a satisfactory answer, I disagree on one point totally: Reading words of God back to Him! Are we reading words of God back to Him or reading His words for ourselves to be reminded of what He has ordained? As I said, it depends on how you look at a picture, especially an abstract one. ]

The verses are read over and over again, how many reminders do you need? How many people actively think about what they are saying and try to adhere to their understanding of them?

Why not gather for salat, read verses of the Quran that pertain to the problems we face, discuss them and then find solutions? That way we will read many verses over a short time period and be much better in tune with what Allah wants us to do; FOLLOW HIS GUIDANCE.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Thursday, August 02, 2012, 16:39 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA

In regards to this question.

"5. While the above objections do come to mind and I fail to find a satisfactory answer, I disagree on one point totally: Reading words of God back to Him! Are we reading words of God back to Him or reading His words for ourselves to be reminded of what He has ordained? As I said, it depends on how you look at a picture, especially an abstract one."


Have you been to a mosque and witnessed the elders reading the Qu'ran?

I'd say its more like chanting with them in a seated position moving their upper bodies back and forth.

There's a clear difference between that of reading a book to gain knowledge and simply reciting any given text.

The prayers we see today is nothing but a ritual chanting back any given surah to Allah, the most knowledgable. There is no reason for this, Allah, most wise, knows the book.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Thursday, August 02, 2012, 22:16 (1906 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Dear Brothers Jawaid and Hicham,

I am not trying to validate Namaz; I do not offer it. But objectivity and logic forces me to analyze logically.

For the Arabic audience in the days of the Exalted Prophet, it could not have been "reading God's words back to Him!" Yes, for a person like me, it would be, unless it is coupled with an explanation later after the namaz (if there is any such thing.) That would also fulfill the need to congregate and discuss current issues and educating people (as per The Quran.)

Jawaid Bhai, we, Humans, do need to be reminded again and again. Quran itself is repetitive in most cases, and so are many self-help books I have read. I am sure you have heard of auto-suggestion. Personality changes occur when thoughts get deeply rooted in the subconscious mind. There are altered states of consciousness such as hypnosis that make it easier to reach the sub or unconscious mind. Autosuggestion accomplishes the same through repetitiveness over a long period of time.

Another point that comes to mind is where and how did Pooja (worship) originate? How did the concept of God originate in the minds of evolving homo sapiens? It is easy to understand how they discovered to make fire but how did ancient pagan cultures conjure up the concept of gods and goddesses? We find the answer in the Quran itself; it tells us God had been sending guidance through his messengers and Man continued to reject it. There is reason to believe every pagan religion must have descended from true revealed Deen and later was distorted. Is it possible that some form of prayer or worship to keep open a direct connection with God was ordained but was later changed according to the whims and fancies of men (the Satanic forces within?)

Again, I must reiterate, I am not trying to validate Namaz, but just considering if we have made a slight mistake in our interpretation of the true meaning of Salaat (that might encompass some form of reading God's Word.) Please do keep in mind I myself gave up Namaz two years back, but I can tell you when I used to offer namaz, I did it out of Taqwa, and it did help me abstain from sin and increase in piety. As such, we cannot blame namaz itself for the current state of Muslims today. It is the lack of Taqwa in the current day Muslims, who indulge in shirk and do not help the needy nor come forward to do something for the betterment of society.

Even in this community, where we discuss the sole implementation of Salaat and Zakaat (Quran,) I wrote a little about my problems, even came close to committing suicide, wrote a long list of Ayahs from the QXP on our beacon forum that clearly state it is the duty of 'those who have chosen to be graced with belief' to help ones who have suffered in life in anyway, nobody really came forward to offer any real help except Dr. Shabbir. I would politely have thanked and refused anyhow...

Amyway, I'll not argue further but we are all waiting for a government to be established that would enforce The Word of God. Problem is how would such a government get established unless we do not first implement The Quran in our own lives? While Namaz is not proven from the Quran, people even find ways to negate fasting during this blessed month.

At least one person, Dr. Asarulislam Syed, whom Dr. Shabbir Ahmad calls 'The Cannon of Quran' has initiated something practical, but his views are so very different.

It is a huge jungle and we still cannot claim to have fully understood the true meaning of Salaat and more so, its implementation.

Thanks.

Salamun Alaykum!

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Rashid ⌂ @, Friday, August 03, 2012, 06:41 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

My penny's worth.
To the general question as to how this Church-mosque based “ritual” came about, one can only say that:-
-The ‘need’ of seeking a ‘super-natural’ authority to help solve ones temporal problems in the ‘vacuum’ of knowledge based information must have been the catalyst to establish the Spiritual Temples, the Churches, and the institution of the ‘Mother church’.
- The vested ‘interests’ of clever people, the potentates and the operatives of the church, the power brokers carved out a niche for themselves by whatever means, then filled that vacuum.
- Despite the repeated Divine messages to eliminate the above, the combination of Firauns, Hamans and Karoons were always successful in re-establishing themselves whenever and wherever they could keep the masses in ignorance. As is evident even today where the State expenditure on ‘knowledge based education’ is far far less than on other areas.
The story of Moses and Verses, 75 onwards of Surah 28, Qasas gives a good narration of human nature as influenced by the Trio. The spirituality that comes from “doing good for the goodness sake” is yet to establish itself among human beings, till then the mother church is here to stay with its agents of spirituality!

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Friday, August 03, 2012, 08:51 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

[we, Humans, do need to be reminded again and again. Quran itself is repetitive in most cases, and so are many self-help books I have read.]

You make a valid point and I agree that proper “programming” [for want of a better word] can produce decent, compassionate human beings. That is why it is important to read the Quran regularly in a language we understand so that it makes a positive contribution to developing our characters[even five times a day, but not the same verses!].

[Is it possible that some form of prayer or worship to keep open a direct connection with God was ordained but was later changed according to the whims and fancies of men (the Satanic forces within?)]

I have always disliked this so-called “connection” to God that the religious priests have said we can have by doing certain prayers, acts of worship, sacrifices etc. I also have no doubt that you are correct that man has always sought to change what Allah has prescribed for the benefit of mankind because it goes against the interests of the greedy, the power hungry, the “satanic” mindsets. As regards any form of worship ordained by Allah which was later changed, that is why we must use the Quran to judge what we and everyone else are doing with its light/guidance. The Quran does not give us any prayer rituals to perform so they are not required. Unfortunately it is so ingrained in the Muslim psyche that it is almost impossible to get them to accept this clear fact.

Righteousness is defined as an attribute that implies that a person's actions are justified, and can have the connotation that the person has been "judged" or "reckoned" as leading a life that is pleasing to God. It is mentioned in:-

28:83 That Home of the Hereafter We shall give to those who do not seek to exalt themselves on earth, nor do they seek corruption and disorder. And the Future belongs to those who seek to live upright [righteous lives].

I have not come across a verse that states that physical prayer rituals etc, namaz, will lead to righteousness. But I have found, as mentioned elsewhere, that the Quran defines this in the following:-

2:177 (One consequence of this schism is their pre-occupation with rituals, with each sect leaving the revelation aside and taking delight in its own set of dogmas they call religion. 30:32.)
RIGHTEOUSNESS and exponential development of the „self‟ depends not on whether you turn your faces to East or West. But RIGHTEOUSNESS is that:
One has conviction in God, And the Last Day, And the Angels, And the Book,
And the Prophets. And that he gives of his cherished wealth to: Family and relatives, Orphans, Widows, Those left helpless in the society, And those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs, Those whose running businesses have stalled, The ones who have lost their jobs, Whose life has stalled for any reason, The disabled, The needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to you for assistance, Those who ask for help, and Those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labor. (And righteous are) those who strive to establish the institution of Salaat, (2:3. 2:53) And help set up the Economic System of Zakaat. They are true to their pledge whenever they make one. And they remain steadfast in physical or emotional distress and in times of peril.
It is those who have proven themselves to be true, and it is those who are living upright.
[2:4, 3:91-92. Yateem, Miskeen, Ibn-is-Sabeel, Fir-Riqaab, carry all the meanings rendered above. Please also note that the Qur‟an has named above the well-known five “Articles of faith.” But belief in Taqdeer = Predetermined destiny, has been interjected in the fabricated Ajami accounts as the sixth article of faith by „Imams‟, making Muslims fatalistic in their thought and behavior. The Qur‟an nowhere mentions Taqdeer or the predestined fates of individuals. Qadar or Taqdeer always denote the law, the due measure of all things appointed by God. And man determines his own destiny by following or defying those laws]

In this list the establishment of Salat [always plural] is mentioned but this is not shown elsewhere in the Quran as being the namaz ritual. It means to use the Quran in every aspect of our lives, to judge according to its teachings, set up councils, governments, etc that are ruling according to His Book, which has to be closely followed. Obedience to Allah comes from obeying the Quran. When this is done, then humanity benefits, not just the selfish individual who wants to “save” them self by doing a form of personal worship.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Friday, August 03, 2012, 12:00 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA.

Brother Syed.

In regards to your thoughts.
I don't think anyone in here can say with 100% certainty that how we understand salaat today is how its really supposed to be.

If anything, the constant discussions and improvements are the best proof of this.
However, the logical conclusion based on the bigger picture of the Qu'rans message would make a non-physical prayer seem to be the most logical outcome.

However, the Qu'ran is timeless, and everyone is constantly learning, salaat today may not have the same understanding some years from now.

Just see Dr. Shabbir Ahmeds translation from since he started. It has been undergoing an almost constant change. Is this not infallibility on our part as humans?

Also, you said:

"Even in this community, where we discuss the sole implementation of Salaat and Zakaat (Quran,) I wrote a little about my problems, even came close to committing suicide, wrote a long list of Ayahs from the QXP on our beacon forum that clearly state it is the duty of 'those who have chosen to be graced with belief' to help ones who have suffered in life in anyway, nobody really came forward to offer any real help except Dr. Shabbir. I would politely have thanked and refused anyhow..."

In regards to this problem... Suicide is a serious issue.. And i do think i remember you writing about it on Ourbeacon forums. I may be imagining it though.

I can only give my personal opinion on this.
But, i would personally never try to help in any other way than to tell said person to go see his/her doctor or psychiatrist immediatly.
One only needs to say 1 wrong thing to trigger an unhappy outcome, and since most don't know you personally and even fewer probably has the necessary practice and education on dealing with such matters, helping out in such a situation can be difficult and almost unrealistic.

So to say that no one really stepped forth to help may not be entirely correct. It may be that people didn't know how to help.

This is probably one of the biggest flaws what concerns online communities. We don't really know each other and our help is only so limited.

My opinions are in no way meant to disrespect your issue or anything else.
So forgive me if anything i said in this post may have come to you as insulting. This was not the intention if so.

Sister Laurie started a thread some months ago where people could speak freely of their way into Islam and the issues we faced along the way.

I found it to be a great way to put life behind the name.
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=1044

And i wish everyone would post their stories in there, as i find it a way to help build relations across distances since, i for one, feel pretty lonely here in Denmark being one of the very very very few muslims whom follow the Qu'ran only.

Salaatforum/Dr. Shabbirs forum/Free-minds is my haven of peace and knowledge in this situation.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by amirabbas, Iran, Friday, August 03, 2012, 18:45 (1905 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Salam,

dear brother, i don't agree with you that "this is probably one of the biggest flaws what concerns online communities. We don't really know each other and our help is only so limited." We see husbands and wives who have been living together for a long time still don't know and understand each other. Co-workers, band-mates, colleagues and other intimate and close relations we can cite.

I believe Muslim should know other people better than themselves since they come to know themselves better.

21:10 O Mankind! Now We have revealed to you a Book that is all about you and it will give you eminence. Will you not, then, use reason?
[21:24, 23:70, 43:43-44]

2:143 Thus We have made you a Balanced Community that you might be witnesses to all mankind, and the messenger a witness over yourselves. It is We Who have appointed the Direction that you have now adopted (O Messenger!) in order to distinguish him who follows the messenger, from him who turns about on his heels. In fact, it has been a momentous change except for those who follow God’s guidance. It is never God’s purpose to let your faith go to waste. God is Compassionate and Merciful to all people.

Definitely, it is God who knows everything. But that doesn't mean we don't know nothing and cannot know each other.

17:84 Say, "Everyone acts in a manner peculiar to himself. (Human beings tend to make their own rules of conduct), but your Lord is best Aware as to who has chosen the best path.

As for brother Ijlal, i would suggest you to follow your heart in the light of the Qur'an and never give up on your visions and dreams.

We cannot know everything since knowing everything will make us useless and uninterested to the world and the universe. We need to understand the Qur'an and what Salaat really means and devise better plans and ways.

We all suffer at times but we need to learn how to survive. We need defeats in order to learn how to win.

First, try to help yourself as i know you are already doing so but remember it always demands patience and time to improve and to become a better person.

Some people don't need the help from others; they just need to hang on and be patience.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Saturday, August 04, 2012, 00:27 (1905 days ago) @ amirabbas

SA!

@ Brother Amirabbas

Your post proves my point to some extent. I never argued that people who physically are close to eachother never fail to not understand one another.
Your example is directed at personal flaws between different parties.

My point was that through an online community, we must assume alot when we read anothers post, and more often than not, we tend to miss the posters point by a longshot. Which is why i said that an online community is never the same as physical human interaction with one another.

Understanding a person is more than just understanding the words said, it is also reading the persons "body language"(in lack of better words, but i hope you understand).

For instance, i could find your post somewhat offensive since it could imply certain personal qualities that i lack, but i do not, because i know that you do not know me in person, you only know about me from a post i made in which you made a lot of wrong assumptions. Which is what i was trying to explain in my post to brother Syed when he said that nobody came to aid besides Dr. Shabbir.

In certain situations, it is not that we are running away from helping, it is simply because we do not know how to help. But that in no way implies that we are running from our salaat.. We are always learning

And i completly agree when you say "I believe Muslim should know other people better than themselves since they come to know themselves better."
But mediums such as the internet holds a barrier that strongly bars us from truly understanding one another. (This is simply my opinion.. it is not final in any way)

@ Brother Syed

Dr. Shabbbir often says, "many talk the talk, but few walk the walk".
And i agree to some extent, but not when it comes to our community.
I cannot point to one person in the 4 years i've been in this community, who wasn't willing to learn or try. We all strive to follow our salaat, but we are also all bound by our individuel restrictions/limitations. In the end it comes down to many things, so claiming(if that is what you are claiming) that we run from our duties, then i'd be so harsh to say that your claim is blatantly false in most cases..

Everyone here seeks to establish salaat in our lifes, but first we must understand what salaat is. No one is running away from it, infact i see courage when i read the countless posts in here with brave muslims who dare to ask questions instead of shutting down and only wanting to understand it in one way.

I personally think its disrespectful of you to say that it is a flaw amongst us.
This is not true, if it was we wouldn't be open for new possibilities and understandings of any part of the Qu'ran. Like i said earlier, just because the logical outcome at the moment seems valid for most of us, it doesn't mean that it is final in any way..

As i stated in my post, what we intended to say rarely ever is what was understood by the reader. I never claimed you needed psychiatric help. I simply stated what i would do in a situation if someone i knew told me he/she had suicidal thoughts.
And i don't see that as being insensitive or lacking empathy towards said person.
It is a sound judgement made based upon the fact that i know how dangerous such a mental state is, and that i am aware of my own limitations in which i can help said person. Therefore i would rather see too it that the person gets the proper help he needs so that he can come back on his feet.

If i see someone physically hurt, i call the doctor and don't start surgery myself.
That doesn't mean i lack empathy or am insensitive..

And believe me when i say i understand the hardship of giving without getting..
I try to do good on every part of my life.. but i always see people getting better by doing bad.. But i know better, because Allah, most generous, rewards those who are steadfast in their belief.. And this is one of the few things that can truly calm me and help me continue my current way of life.

I cannot claim to say i've got it harder or just as hard as you.
Living in Pakistan with a different opinion than the masses can get you killed.
I'm aware of this..
But i sincerely doubt any muslim today whom follow the Qu'ran and not hadith doesn't have it hard in one way or the other. We willingly isolate ourselves from our surroundings, our family even, to follow Allah in every aspect of our lives.
But i understand your feeling of being lonely, and your online family will always be there to support you in any way we possibly can.

I hope my post doesn't come off as being disrespectful in anyway.
I am simply trying to give a clear picture of my thoughts on the current matter.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Saturday, August 04, 2012, 22:09 (1904 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

SA!

Dear Brother Hicham,

WS!

I am going to answer to a few of your relevant points and delete the rest, so please bear with me. My replies would be in bold text as I would be replying within you quoted message.

In certain situations, it is not that we are running away from helping, it is simply because we do not know how to help. But that in no way implies that we are running from our salaat.. We are always learning

Brother, I gave my email address for a purpose; I wanted to test a hypothesis I had in mind and it proved out correct. Was it not simple enough to write to me privately and ask how one could help? As I wrote before, I would have thanked and refused politely but at least it would have proven that people who write so much about establishing Salaat were actually doing something about establishing it.

If I did not have some honor, it was a simple matter to ask for help in a direct way that would quite practically and simply have put my stalled business back on track, which, incidentally, is only a minor part of my problems


And i completly agree when you say "I believe Muslim should know other people better than themselves since they come to know themselves better."
But mediums such as the internet holds a barrier that strongly bars us from truly understanding one another. (This is simply my opinion.. it is not final in any way)

We are so few and scattered around the world, internet is the only medium we can communicate through. Perhaps, a facebook group would help us know each other much better, while we can continue to discuss The Quran on these forums


@ Brother Syed

Dr. Shabbbir often says, "many talk the talk, but few walk the walk".
And i agree to some extent, but not when it comes to our community.
I cannot point to one person in the 4 years i've been in this community, who wasn't willing to learn or try. We all strive to follow our salaat, but we are also all bound by our individuel restrictions/limitations. In the end it comes down to many things, so claiming(if that is what you are claiming) that we run from our duties, then i'd be so harsh to say that your claim is blatantly false in most cases..

Everyone here seeks to establish salaat in our lifes, but first we must understand what salaat is. No one is running away from it, infact i see courage when i read the countless posts in here with brave muslims who dare to ask questions instead of shutting down and only wanting to understand it in one way.

Thanks brother for your claim but being harsh is against the spirit of salaat, so I hope you would consider being less harsh. And I feel you are contradicting yourself here by claiming to know that everybody here is doing justice with their Salaat. Please reread your previous comments


I personally think its disrespectful of you to say that it is a flaw amongst us.

I proved my point above. You might find it disrespectful but I find it disrespectful to overlook so many verses in The Quran that are commands and not allegories and concentrate on a just few. All I can say is you are not in my shoes and I, not in yours; so let us agree to disagree respectfully


As i stated in my post, what we intended to say rarely ever is what was understood by the reader. I never claimed you needed psychiatric help. I simply stated what i would do in a situation if someone i knew told me he/she had suicidal thoughts.

Yes, I agree many fail to understand our points of view because it is Human nature to perceive things from their own point of view; perception is a cognizant process. All the more reason to be very clear when we write...

I can assure you majority of readers would have thought you were referring to me because I have had the courage to expose myself in public by stating I have had suicidal thoughts

And i don't see that as being insensitive or lacking empathy towards said person.
It is a sound judgement made based upon the fact that i know how dangerous such a mental state is, and that i am aware of my own limitations in which i can help said person. Therefore i would rather see too it that the person gets the proper help he needs so that he can come back on his feet.

Again, a matter of perception; not everyone who has had suicidal thoughts is sick. Psychiatrists can only treat sick people, not the ones who have lost the will to live because of madmen around them. Try envisaging yourself locked up in a cuckoo's nest!


If i see someone physically hurt, i call the doctor and don't start surgery myself.
That doesn't mean i lack empathy or am insensitive..

No, in that case you don't lack sympathy (empathy, in my opinion is a little different) or are insensitive, for that is practical help!


And believe me when i say i understand the hardship of giving without getting..
I try to do good on every part of my life.. but i always see people getting better by doing bad.. But i know better, because Allah, most generous, rewards those who are steadfast in their belief.. And this is one of the few things that can truly calm me and help me continue my current way of life.

The sole reason I am still alive :-)


I cannot claim to say i've got it harder or just as hard as you.
Living in Pakistan with a different opinion than the masses can get you killed.
I'm aware of this..

What a blessing it would be if I get killed for upholding the truth! And, I don't say this because I wish to die because of suffering in this life

But i sincerely doubt any muslim today whom follow the Qu'ran and not hadith doesn't have it hard in one way or the other. We willingly isolate ourselves from our surroundings, our family even, to follow Allah in every aspect of our lives.
But i understand your feeling of being lonely, and your online family will always be there to support you in any way we possibly can.

I thought so, too!


I hope my post doesn't come off as being disrespectful in anyway.
I am simply trying to give a clear picture of my thoughts on the current matter.

Take care of yourself brother. God bless you!

Salamun Alaykum

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Sunday, August 05, 2012, 10:01 (1904 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA

@Brother Syed.

Brother Syed.
First of you have made the claim that:

"This is The Main Flaw amongst us; we tend to run away from our duties (and I am not talking about Namaz that I also consider wrong!)"

And, as it seems, you make that claim based on:

Brother, I gave my email address for a purpose; I wanted to test a hypothesis I had in mind and it proved out correct. Was it not simple enough to write to me privately and ask how one could help? As I wrote before, I would have thanked and refused politely but at least it would have proven that people who write so much about establishing Salaat were actually doing something about establishing it.

So, if i understand you correctly.
You had an idea that, if you made a post in regards to very personal problems such as suicidal thoughts, you'd expect dozens of mails from people whom you do not know, and whom do not know you at all, simply to give personal advice as to your situation or any other form of reply?

Your empirical evidence in this hypothesis are very weak and your conclusion that we therefore must be not wanting to implement salaat in our lives, or even running from it, is based solely on assumptions without any real empirical evidence to back it up...

First of, you do not know how many even saw your post.
Secondly, you do not know how well people react to such situations.
Third, even if many saw your post, you do not know their reasons for not sending you a mail, you can only assume why they didn't.

And there are probably more factors as to why. So i'm having a hard time figuring out your reasoning as to that hypothesis being factual in any logical way.


You said in some earlier posts:
Anyway, I'll not argue further but we are all waiting for a government to be established that would enforce The Word of God. Problem is how would such a government get established unless we do not first implement The Quran in our own lives? While Namaz is not proven from the Quran, people even find ways to negate fasting during this blessed month.

We are still learning, as i proclaimed earlier, Ourbeacon and Salaat forum is a sound evidence of this, which is why i can claim to say that everyone on these boards seek to learn and implement the Qu'ran in their lives, even though i do not know them personally, otherwise there would be no reason for them to be here, except but to feed their own ego in light of wanting to go to heaven(but i sincecerely doubt this).
So i don't feel like i contradict my point as you stated.

But enough is enough, i respect your opinion and views, although when it comes to this exact matter, i could not disagree with you anymore than i have already shown.

As i always state, i do not intend to be disrespectful or harsh in my posts in any possible way, we are having a discussion and do not aim for personal attacks.
We are brothers/sisters despite everything.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Sunday, August 05, 2012, 21:17 (1903 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

Dear brother Hicham,

I was very specific in my last post, and I'll try to be that again. I think you have taken a few arguments out of context.

"This is The Main Flaw amongst us; we tend to run away from our duties (and I am not talking about Namaz that I also consider wrong!)"

May I ask what duties? I sent a long list of verses from The Quran in a previous post that clearly indicate what sort of duties we run away from.


And, as it seems, you make that claim based on:

Brother, I gave my email address for a purpose; I wanted to test a hypothesis I had in mind and it proved out correct. Was it not simple enough to write to me privately and ask how one could help? As I wrote before, I would have thanked and refused politely but at least it would have proven that people who write so much about establishing Salaat were actually doing something about establishing it.

So, if i understand you correctly.
You had an idea that, if you made a post in regards to very personal problems such as suicidal thoughts, you'd expect dozens of mails from people whom you do not know, and whom do not know you at all, simply to give personal advice as to your situation or any other form of reply?

Your empirical evidence in this hypothesis are very weak and your conclusion that we therefore must be not wanting to implement salaat in our lives, or even running from it, is based solely on assumptions without any real empirical evidence to back it up...

Just because the topic of that discussion (on ourbeacon.com forum) was the lawfulness or otherwise of suicide, and I mentioned my thoughts in support of those who do go through unbearable pain, you have stuck to this one point. Please understand if I decide to kill myself, I would not write to the world and expect mails from people around the world to save me! I would do it as quietly as possible!


First of, you do not know how many even saw your post.

There have been 165 discrete views of that post

Secondly, you do not know how well people react to such situations.

I don't need to know how people react once they are trying to establish Salaat in their lives and there are clear instructions in the Quran (that I have posted more than once)

Third, even if many saw your post, you do not know their reasons for not sending you a mail, you can only assume why they didn't.

And there are probably more factors as to why. So i'm having a hard time figuring out your reasoning as to that hypothesis being factual in any logical way.

We mostly assume first and then check the validity of our assumptions. There might be empirical flaws in my testing but I was not conducting scientific research. I assumed nobody would bother and I got my answer - I had nothing to prove to anyone else. Please read that post in proper context and you'll understand I did not even ask for help


You said in some earlier posts:
Anyway, I'll not argue further but we are all waiting for a government to be established that would enforce The Word of God. Problem is how would such a government get established unless we do not first implement The Quran in our own lives? While Namaz is not proven from the Quran, people even find ways to negate fasting during this blessed month.

We are still learning, as i proclaimed earlier, Ourbeacon and Salaat forum is a sound evidence of this, which is why i can claim to say that everyone on these boards seek to learn and implement the Qu'ran in their lives, even though i do not know them personally, otherwise there would be no reason for them to be here, except but to feed their own ego in light of wanting to go to heaven(but i sincecerely doubt this).
So i don't feel like i contradict my point as you stated.

But enough is enough, i respect your opinion and views, although when it comes to this exact matter, i could not disagree with you anymore than i have already shown.

As i always state, i do not intend to be disrespectful or harsh in my posts in any possible way, we are having a discussion and do not aim for personal attacks.
We are brothers/sisters despite everything.

Brother, let us end it here. You just named the correct term ego. I probably hurt your ego by proclaiming many of us are not really doing enough to incorporate Salaat in our lives. Why you became so defensive, I cannot fathom, as I had made a general point and not directed it against you in particular.

I just wrote that post on suicide because I felt a lot of insensitivity from many people against those who suffer to a point they are unable to continue to live. There were a few, very learned people like Brother Jawaid Ahmad who did show true empathy towards such unfortunate people and it was very touching.

You do have a right to express your views, and they might help some.

Finally, I apologize if I have hurt you in any way.

Peace be upon you!

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Hicham Mouna, Denmark, Sunday, August 05, 2012, 10:16 (1904 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA.

Forgot one thing:

You said:
Again, a matter of perception; not everyone who has had suicidal thoughts is sick. Psychiatrists can only treat sick people, not the ones who have lost the will to live because of madmen around them. Try envisaging yourself locked up in a cuckoo's nest!

Just because one is reffered to a psychiatrist does not mean said person is sick.

Psychiatrists or therapists can help individuals understand their own thoughts and why/how they came to certain conclusions in their lifes. An individual does not have to be sick in their "head" in order to go see these professionals.

IF i had a close friend, who's situation i knew and could understand why he may have started having such thoughts, being there for him would be easier since i know said person well.

But if a total stranger came to me and said he had suicidal thoughts, i would not know said persons background nor current situation, and helping this person would all of the sudden become much harder. Simply because i do not know if he was being serious on his claim, or simply wanting somebody to talk with.
Hence an emergency hospitilisation could easily become actual.

There's a reason its statutory for citizens to call the police if someone sitting by the window claims he wants to take his own life..

I've had such thoughts myself once.. It's not a funny state of mind to be in.
But alhamdulilah i think it's made us both stronger.

When you feel everything is against you, the entire world becomes a locked cage.

--
Best regards
Hicham

- a novice in the long road of learning

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Friday, August 03, 2012, 21:33 (1905 days ago) @ Hicham Mouna

SA.

Brother Syed.

In regards to your thoughts.
I don't think anyone in here can say with 100% certainty that how we understand salaat today is how its really supposed to be.

If anything, the constant discussions and improvements are the best proof of this.
However, the logical conclusion based on the bigger picture of the Qu'rans message would make a non-physical prayer seem to be the most logical outcome.

However, the Qu'ran is timeless, and everyone is constantly learning, salaat today may not have the same understanding some years from now.

Just see Dr. Shabbir Ahmeds translation from since he started. It has been undergoing an almost constant change. Is this not infallibility on our part as humans?

Also, you said:

"Even in this community, where we discuss the sole implementation of Salaat and Zakaat (Quran,) I wrote a little about my problems, even came close to committing suicide, wrote a long list of Ayahs from the QXP on our beacon forum that clearly state it is the duty of 'those who have chosen to be graced with belief' to help ones who have suffered in life in anyway, nobody really came forward to offer any real help except Dr. Shabbir. I would politely have thanked and refused anyhow..."

In regards to this problem... Suicide is a serious issue.. And i do think i remember you writing about it on Ourbeacon forums. I may be imagining it though.

I can only give my personal opinion on this.
But, i would personally never try to help in any other way than to tell said person to go see his/her doctor or psychiatrist immediatly.
One only needs to say 1 wrong thing to trigger an unhappy outcome, and since most don't know you personally and even fewer probably has the necessary practice and education on dealing with such matters, helping out in such a situation can be difficult and almost unrealistic.

So to say that no one really stepped forth to help may not be entirely correct. It may be that people didn't know how to help.

This is probably one of the biggest flaws what concerns online communities. We don't really know each other and our help is only so limited.

My opinions are in no way meant to disrespect your issue or anything else.
So forgive me if anything i said in this post may have come to you as insulting. This was not the intention if so.

Sister Laurie started a thread some months ago where people could speak freely of their way into Islam and the issues we faced along the way.

I found it to be a great way to put life behind the name.
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=1044

And i wish everyone would post their stories in there, as i find it a way to help build relations across distances since, i for one, feel pretty lonely here in Denmark being one of the very very very few muslims whom follow the Qu'ran only.

Salaatforum/Dr. Shabbirs forum/Free-minds is my haven of peace and knowledge in this situation.


Dear Brother Hicham,

This is The Main Flaw amongst us; we tend to run away from our duties (and I am not talking about Namaz that I also consider wrong!)

Helping one another and creating empathy is the real essence of Salaat!

Unfortunately, we are willing to find all reasons to run away from hardships such as namaaz and Roza/Sawm - again, not arguing on the validity or invalidity of Namaaz, but not willing to establish Salaat practically!

Here are a few verses for you that explain at least one aspect of the meaning of Salaat:

2:177 (One consequence of this schism is their pre-occupation with rituals, with each sect leaving the revelation aside and taking delight in its own set of dogmas they call religion. 30:320.) Righteousness and exponential development of the ‘self’ depends not on whether you turn your faces to East or West. But righteousness is that: One has conviction in God, And the Last Day, And the Angels, And the Book, And the prophets. And that he gives of his cherished wealth to: Family and relatives, Orphans, Widows, Those left helpless in the society, And those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs, Those whose running businesses have stalled, The ones who have lost their jobs, Whose life has stalled for any reason, The disabled, The needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to you for assistance, Those who ask for help, and Those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labor. (And righteous are) those who strive to establish the institution of Salaat, (2:3. 2:53) And help set up the Economic System of Zakaat. They are true to their pledge whenever they make one. And they remain steadfast in physical or emotional distress and in times of peril. It is those who have proven themselves to be true, and it is those who are living upright.

17:26 And give your relative his or her Divinely ordained right, and give to those whose running businesses have stalled, those who have lost their jobs, the needy wayfarer, the homeless, and the one who reaches you in a state of destitution. Do not squander your wealth senselessly. [2:261, 6:141. Squanderers cannot be charitable]

30:38 So, give the relatives their rightful share, and to the needy, and the one whose business has stalled, the one who has lost his job, the one whose hard-earned income is insufficient to meet the basic needs, the homeless son of the street, and the needy traveler and the one who has traveled to you for help. This is best for those who seek God's Approval. For, it is those who are truly successful. [Zal qurba, Miskeen, Wabn-is-sabeel, encompass all the meanings rendered. The Divinely ordained Economic Order will ensure equity and prosperity for all]

74:44 “Neither did we feed the hungry, nor did we take part in helping those who had lost their jobs, those whose businesses had stalled, and those whose hard-earned income was insufficient to meet their basic needs.”

76:6 A spring whereof the servants of God drink – it is those who make it flow in abundance. [The true servants of God achieve His blessings of guidance and all that is good, and share them with fellow human beings]
76:7 They fulfill their vows and pledges and fear (and therefore, guard against) the times when chaos and corruption might sweep the society.
76:8 And they feed, for the love of nobility, the indigent, the orphan and
the captive. [They help establish the System where the first ones to receive the provisions of God are the ones who are needy, who have lost their jobs, whose lives have stalled, the widows, the orphans, the ones who feel left alone in the society, the captives and those who are stranded on earth for any reason]
76:9 (They do all this selflessly) saying, "We provide for you for the sake of God alone. We want no return from you, not even a word of thanks.

89:18 And you fail to encourage one another to feed the needy (and establish a benevolent society). [The term used for ‘feeding’ is highly inclusive. Here it indicates failing to establish the ideal society that takes care of all individuals. Miskeen = Poor = Needy = Whose life is stranded for any reason = Whose business has stalled = Who has lost his job = Whose life has been hampered by circumstances. Ta’aam = Feeding = Food = Provision = Basic needs of life. A benevolent society takes care of the basic needs of life. None would sleep hungry therein]

107:1 Have you seen him who proclaims allegiance to the Divine System, but denies it in action? [53:33, 75:32-33, 95:7. Takzeeb = To give lie = Deny in practice = Reject in daily life]
107:2 Indeed, he is the one who repels the orphan, the widow, the helpless, the one in a lonely state. [89:10, 69:34]
107:3 And urges not the feeding of the needy. And participates not in helping those who have lost their jobs, whose businesses have stalled, and whose hard earned income is insufficient to meet their basic needs.

Have you noticed how animals feed together? They growl and snatch bits and pieces out of each others' mouths; this is what we are doing these days (or have probably been doing forever!) Those who choose to be graced with belief do the opposite; they feed others, they take pains upon themselves and give happiness to others. These are the traits that make us Humans the best of creation!

I am sorry to state I do not need any psychiatric help, as you have stated. You may just not be sensitive enough to understand what pains those who go the extra mile for the sake of others, go through when people around them lack empathy and compassion.

In my humble opinion, (and I am saying this generally, and not directing it towards you,) it is those who are insensitive to others and lack empathy that need to be treated. People like me are victims of such people.

You are not alone brother; I also feel very lonely, here, in Pakistan, which was supposed to be the fortress of Islam. Here, I do not just feel lonely, I have to fight the brainwashed Muslims to uphold the truth and face isolation because of it. It does not just end here; one day, one of the 'religious gangsters' (Mazhabi Badmash in the language of Dr. Asarulislam Syed) is going to hear my views and give a fatwa (decree) against me that I am an apostate and hence 'Wajibul Qatl'!

Allah bless you!

Salamun Alaykum.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Fadil @, Yaounde, Cameroon, Friday, August 03, 2012, 13:02 (1906 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

SA

In regards to this question.

"5. While the above objections do come to mind and I fail to find a satisfactory answer, I disagree on one point totally: Reading words of God back to Him! Are we reading words of God back to Him or reading His words for ourselves to be reminded of what He has ordained? As I said, it depends on how you look at a picture, especially an abstract one."

For me, reading back to Allah is one of the most laughing stuff. It is with full knowledge that Allah has revealed the book

It does not really make sense to me when one makes ablution, stands up and start reading...

Example
Surah 105. Al-Feel – The Elephant
With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Instant and Sustaining Source of
all Mercy and Kindness
105:1 Are you not aware of how your Lord de alt with the Army of the
Elephant?
105:2 Did He not bring their strategy to utter failure?
105:3 And sent upon them swarms of flying creatures.
105:4 Then you showered them with hard stones earmarked with
requital. [Sijjeel = Inscribed = Marked out]
105:5 And made them like a field of grain eaten down to stubble.

Is reading back to Allah the right way of reminding ourselves of the message? Are we informing God of His message? do we even understand what we recite? Why focusing on reciting instead of practicing what the message tells us? It is even worst now as every imam wants to complete quran recitation in the ritual salat by the end of ramadhan. My mind is always roaming while the guy is reading his arabic. I am constantly lost whether we are on rakat 1, 2 etc.

I always thought of a simple situation. For instance if your father, while leaving home in the morning tells you to clean the house, fetch water and iron cloth; When he comes back in the evening, will he reward/grade you because you recited back to him what he asked you to do or because of what you actually did? should we focus on reciting back or doing what we are asked to do in the book?

Salam

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Syed Ijlal Hussain ⌂ @, Karachi - Pakistan, Friday, August 03, 2012, 19:58 (1905 days ago) @ Fadil

Brother Fadil,

You have not comprehended my post properly. I never said reading Allah's words back to Him is right.

Thanks,

Salamun Alaykum!

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Quasim Hamdani, Chicago, Friday, August 03, 2012, 16:15 (1905 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

Is it possible that we, who profess to get our guidance from the Quran only, lack confidence in our abilities to understand the messages in the Quran and do not have enough conviction to convert our understanding into our actions?

There is a lot of debate on Namaaz and Rosa - should they be performed, ignored, or modified?

I believe that Allah guides those who follow their convictions and not look for approval from others. Allah will guide us to the right actions if we put our trust in Allah.

A Muslim community is formed on the basis of living under a system of life defined as the Deen. A community assembled on the basis of rituals will never stick together and prosper.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Ali Noor Atlanta, Atlanta, Sunday, August 05, 2012, 16:44 (1903 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

while performing Salat ( Namaz)in Three of Five times the Imam recites Quranic Ayaat (not to read back to Allah but to remind himself) & the muslims standing behind him.As the muslims are supposed to know the meaning of Quran all remind themselves of Allah's Commands.Reciting & hearing the Ayaat are to refresh understanding of Quran which is basic duty of a muslim to follow in day to day life.Most of the Muslims may or may not recite Quran but the Salat makes them to recite Quranic Ayaat to remine themselves of Allah commands.Salat is time table for muslims to recite,understand & follow in day today life.This is my humble undestanding.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Damon, Pennsylvania, USA, Monday, August 13, 2012, 14:43 (1896 days ago) @ Quasim Hamdani

Salaamun 'Alaiykum Sisters and Brothers,

Brother Quasim you're entire post is indeed a wise one. Especially the last two paragraphs:

"I believe that Allah guides those who follow their convictions and not look for approval from others. Allah will guide us to the right actions if we put our trust in Allah."


"A Muslim community is formed on the basis of living under a system of life defined as the Deen. A community assembled on the basis of rituals will never stick together and prosper."

And this is absolutely true. As evidence all we have to do is look at the so-called Muslim Countries that participate in these rituals and yet they are NOT unified community of people let alone prosperous. Egypt and Syria are two immediate countries that come to my mind.

SA,
Damon.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 11:54 (1895 days ago) @ Syed Ijlal Hussain

salaam Syed, all,

Please bear in mind:
http://salaatforum.com/index.php?id=1785

With regard to the ablution verses, some try to explain them away citing metaphorical/idiomatic use, however all explanations I have read are forced to disregard cross-reference and logic. Further, they do not cite any references from Classical Arabic dictionaries etc. This suggests such evidence does not exist.

And regarding how "namaz" came about, to me, it seems quite simple: from my reading of Quran, there is clearly a regular/timed salat/bond for the mumineen, and as with many religious practices they become superficial/ritualised, things added, modified etc etc so elements of the original practice remain. To understand what I mean, one may have to read my short article on salat:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 13:50 (1895 days ago) @ Waqas

Ablution

Do classical Arabic dictionaries give the metaphorical meaning of words and sentences composed of words? If they do not then it is left to us to understand them. I am not promoting deviant views, but sometimes there is a meaning in the words that requires thinking about, Surah 3:7? An example which is usually rendered to shave the head is idiomatically explained as follows:-

2:196 (Peace cannot defend itself. Mankind have to guard it.) Therefore, observe the Hajj and „Umrah Convention for God. If you are stranded, send in gifts that the congregation would utilize. Do not consider that by doing so you have relieved yourself of duty. Be with them at heart until the gifts have reached their destination. If someone is sick or has other compelling burdens preventing him from sending any contribution, then Abstinence for a few days at convenience, or an act of charity or fulfilling someone‟s need shall be in order. If a person is present at the Convention but cannot afford to contribute, he should exercise Abstinence for a total number of ten days, three days there and seven days after coming home. This is for him whose people do not live in the vicinity of the Convention. Be mindful of God, remembering the noble objective. And know that God (His law) is Strict in grasping.
[Hajj is the annual Convention in a specified time while „Umrah is a visit to the Masjid of Makkah any time during the year. Both have a sublime objective as the Qur‟an explains, although Muslims have reduced them into mere rituals similar to the Days of Ignorance. There is no mention of kissing the black-stone in Ka‟bah, any "holiness" about the Zam Zam water, or that of throwing rocks at the three pillars signifying Satan. See footnote to Surah 105. The Noble Objective of the Pilgrimage is to arrange regular and intermittent international conferences in Makkah. Delegates from all over the world would get together there and devise ways to make the world a better place to live. Halqirras = Relief of burden = Idiom for relief - „Imams‟ Jurjani, Hasan Basari, Shehristani]

Do we reject this and see Allah as wanting us to shave our heads at Hajj?

Salat

I cannot be a Muslim in isolation, it demands communal actions. Bearing this in mind, salat gatherings of whatever nature [national government, local councils, community discussions etc] require a discussion on the issues at hand and come up with Quranic validated solutions. This “regular/timed salat/bond for the mumineen”, seems much more logical to me than the ritualised namaz we see today. Your article addressing the reading and understanding the Quran at the start and end of day also makes sense. We should make sure we know what the Quran says and not leave it to individuals to tell us. Frankly speaking it is because we have delegated the understanding/interpretation of the Quran to the godfathers of Islam, the Mullahs and Imams, that they have been able to divert us from the Quranic straight path.

Namaz - Objections and Counterobjections

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Tuesday, August 14, 2012, 18:01 (1894 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

salaam jawaid,

You asked:
Do classical Arabic dictionaries give the metaphorical meaning of words and sentences composed of words?

AFAIK yes they do. Many idioms are recorded in classical arabic dictionaries. There is a work on verbal idioms of Quran by mustansir mir, available to download free as pdf, but it does not contain all idioms, but many.

As I said, with regards to the ablution verses I have personally never seen anyone able to make an alternative explanation fit. The only way it can fit is to say these idioms do not exist elsewhere and in terms of cross-reference 4:43/5:6 are unique occurrences in Quran. In terms of evidence, this is rather poor.


And with regards to 2:196, please see:
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=318

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