Debate: Traditional Islam Vs Quran based islam

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Thursday, September 06, 2012, 22:07 (1809 days ago)

salaam all,

I thought members may find this thread helpful (click)

It is very long, and a little jumbled, as multiple threads were joined together, but it raises many good arguments against the problems in Traditional Islamic beliefs and practices.

Debate: Traditional Islam Vs Quran based islam

by Damon, Pennsylvania, USA, Friday, September 07, 2012, 18:01 (1808 days ago) @ Waqas

By the time I made it to the second page I was already fed up with the N2I traditionalists and their lack of intelligence. Those people have to be the most intellectually deprived people on the planet. It simply is NOT worth it to debate with them or try to get them to actually "Think". If people wish not to use their own God given brains to think then it's best to let them be. I have not the patience to deal with them anymore.

Debate: Traditional Islam Vs Quran based islam

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Saturday, September 08, 2012, 08:06 (1808 days ago) @ Damon

I somewhat agree.

The thread ends where a challenge is issued to all forum members to bring forth 10 questions that are most difficult to answer / to expose Quran based islam beliefs / defeat such a position etc.

Debate: Traditional Islam Vs Quran based islam

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, September 10, 2012, 10:29 (1806 days ago) @ Waqas

I can understand Damon’s frustration and here are my brief answers to the absurd questions that you referred to:

1)
Is it possible to derive legal rulings by following the Qur'an only and not using hadith or school of thought, especially as most of us are not fluent in Qur'anic Arabic?

Answer-The Quran is for all mankind and not for Arabic speakers only. Legal rulings that are not in the Quran can be derived from consensus amongst the people of a time, at that time, relevant to that time. According to:-
3:159 It is God's mercy that you (O Messenger) are lenient and compassionate with people. For, if you were harsh and stern of heart, they would have broken away from you. So, pardon them, arrange for their security, and consult with them in matters of public interest. Then, once you have taken a decision, put your trust in God. God loves those who do their best and then put their trust in Him.

If the Messenger consulted with his people over affairs at hand, then so should we.
What about the rulings of our ancestors? The Imams, the hadith, the Jurists, the etc etc we worship are accorded this beautiful answer from the Quran:-

2:170 When it is said unto these (satans), "Follow what God has revealed", they say, "Nay! We follow that wherein we found our ancestors.” "What! Even though their ancestors (and the ancient Imams) were lacking in understanding and were not rightly guided?”
[5:104, 10:78, 11:62, 11:87, 21:53, 34:43, 38:7, 43:23. Hudan and derivatives = Prominent = Bright = Lighted = Clearly visible = Leading = Guidance = Lighthouse = A well-lit road = A landmark of identification in the desert or sea]
2:171 The likeness of such blind followers is that (of a herd of sheep) which hear the shepherd’s call, but hear in it nothing more than a sound and a shout. Deaf, dumb, blind, for they use not their reason and, hence, fail to attain good common sense.
[This is subhuman level of existence 7:179. ‘Unq = Shepherd’s call. Shepherd here pertains to religious leaders who have learned some meaningless words or tenets, and a herd of sheep is the masses that blindly follow them. Kufr embraces blind following in addition to denying or concealing the truth. Perceptual senses alone cannot distinguish human beings from the rest of the Animal Kingdom. It is the data processing or intellectual analysis that makes them distinct]

2)
Do quranists use tafsir/commentaries on the verses they're reading or do they use the verses without any further historical context of when/how they were first revealed?

Answer- This is another nonsensical belief about the Quran; unless you know when and where the Quran was revealed you cannot understand it!!!! And what do we look at in order to understand the Quran? Tales from our ancestors who read the Quran and made up stories about it. Please refer to answer 1 for what the Quran says aout this.

3)
Qn. Who was the first person that stated the Quran was the only reference to Islam? [And I'm referring to person because your interpretation of the Quran is just your interpretation or I would say misinterpretation]

Answer Actually, it was Allah who I follow, who cares who else said this:-
4:87 Allah! There is no god but He. He will summon all of you on the Day of Resurrection about the advent of which there is no doubt. Who can tell you a more reliable HADITH (saying) than Allah

7:185 Can they not see (and correlate what he tells them with) the Dominion of the heavens and the earth and what Allah has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their own life may be near (hence the time to make the right decisions is not unlimited)? What HADITH besides the Qur’an, are they going to believe after him?

31:6 But among people, there are those who invest their time in HADITH which is unfounded, so as to lead those without knowledge away from the Path of Allah, making mockery of it (the Qur'an). For such there is shameful punishment in store. [In order to defend the ‘Imams’ of Hadith, some commentators try to explain away ‘Lahwal Hadith’ as music. This obviously makes no linguistic or contextual sense].

5)
Illuminate
first the five pillars - how do you practise your two times a day salah?

Answer-No ritualised namaaz practice in the Quran so i do not practice/exercise/ two or five times a day. Salat is to closely follow the Divine Word of Allah in everything we do, including community councils, parliamnets, schools, hospitals, legal affairs, warfare etc etc.


6)
why don't you god alone ppl consider the prophet (saw) the messenger the final one - but make ppl like Rashad Khilafa messengers and even say more to come. If you god alone ppl believe you are so right - why can't you even name one person - with proof - actually practise the religion as you do - where are all their works and books - if you lot - god alone - have written many articles and books these days - where are the books and articles of the past ppl - surely they must have been someone of note - can you show us - from the islamic 1400 years history who these ppl were - with relevant proof.....

Answer-If you cannot answer the Quran then accuse someone of following a deviant! The inference is that because he was a deviant then anything you say is suspect as well, thus ignoring the Quran. What does the Quran say on a topic is what we should be debating and just because their are devinats who follow devuiants does not mean they do not say the truth at times.
I am a Quran follower, not a follower of any man, alive or dead . See answer 1 for proof.


7)
dark night
* My question is why do many of your kind (the submitters), like your founder Richard Kalif, disbelieve and reject two verses from Al-Qur'an? The verses in question are, of course, Surah At-Taubah Chapter 9:128-129. Seems odd that, for a who group claim to be the only ones who understand and follow Al-Qur'an, you choose to reject the two Ayah from Surah At-Taubah.

Answer-The Quran is complete and is not in any need of a deviant who rejected two verses that does not fit his ludicrous theory. Nothing he said about the Quran and 19 is anything more than statistical chance and in order to get his he repeatedly changes his methods! Same goes for that deviant Edip Yuksel.


8)
* Since your kind have rejected Authentic Sunnah/Hadith, how are you able to know in what context each verse(s)/chapter is revealed in? Wouldn't it make sense to know why, when and how the verse(s)/chapter were revealed and to interpreted/understand them in that context? ie how the Messenger of Allah (PBUH)and his Noble Companions followed the guidence of Al-Quran.

Answer-See above answers for what authentic hadith Allah wants us to follow. Everything written after the death of the Messenger are hearsay:-
6:148 Those who associate others with God will say, “Had God willed, we would not have practiced idolatry, nor would our ancestors, nor would we have prohibited anything.” So did their ancestors argue falsely until they tasted Our Requital. Say, “Do you have any proven knowledge that you can present (that the human being is created without free will 18:29, 76:3, 90:10)? Nay, you follow nothing but conjecture and you only run after guess-work.”
6:149 Say, "The most Powerful Reasoning, the Final Evidence belongs to God. If He willed, He could have made all of you innately guided (like other creation who spontaneously follow Divine Laws 16:49, 41:11.)”
6:150 Say, “Come, bring forward your witnesses who can bear witness that God forbade all this. And if they bear witness falsely, do not bear witness with them. You shall not follow the opinions of those who deny Our revelations, nor of those who do not believe in the life to come, and deem others equal with their Lord. [8:53,

(Associating anyone or anything with Allah is condemned; this includes the so-called prophetic traditions)


9)
* Why reject the Sunnah of the Prophet of Allah (PBUH) but follow the sunnah of Richard Kalif?

Answer-We do not, We reject any sunnah except the sunnah of Allah:-
15:13 La yu/minoona bihi waqad khalat sunnatu al-awwaleena
15:13 They do not accept the Message. Such has been the way of those who went before them.

18:55 Wama manaAAa alnnasa an yu/minoo ith jaahumu alhuda wayastaghfiroo rabbahum illa an ta/tiyahum sunnatu al-awwaleena aw ya/tiyahumu alAAathabu qubulan
18:55 For, what is there to keep people from attaining belief now that Guidance has come to them, and from asking the protecting forgiveness of their Lord? Unless they choose the fate of the ancient people to befall them or that the doom reaches them even faster.

10)
The Shadow

If the Quran is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salat, although it repeatdly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure?

If prayer is emphasized so much, but then the Quran does not tell us how to perform this act, then what would be thought of such a Book???

So, either it is a terrible ommission (then the Quran cannot be from God) or there was another source provided ("how to").

Answer-No! Your understanding of salat is based on your ancestor worshipping practices which are not in the Quran. Allah did not put any physical rituals in the Quran because it is not required for salat. He explains the Quran so
6:126 And this (Qur‟an) is the path of your Lord, a straight path. We have detailed Our revelations for those who pay attention and take them to heart!

Salat from the Quran DOES exclude any form of ritualised prayer, turning heads left and right [east or west in the Quran]. Ritualised namaaz is the same as poojah to idols; they are both meaningless and do not build Quranic personalities, which is what the whole exercise of Salat is supposed to achieve.
Read and understand the instructions of the Quran, then establish these principles in practice to form a just social system.

If we are required to do aerobics five times a day, Allah would have told us to do so and not left it to our ancestors to show us how.

How does reading a few verses of the Quran back to Allah benefit Him or us?

2:177 (One consequence of this schism is their pre-occupation with rituals, with each sect leaving the Revelation aside and taking delight in its own set of dogmas they call religion. 30:320.)
Righteousness and exponential development of the ‘self’ depends not on whether you turn your faces to East or West. But righteousness is that:
One has conviction in God,
And the Last Day,
And the Angels,
And the Book,
And the prophets.
And that he gives his cherished wealth to:
Family and relatives,
Orphans,
Widows,
Those left helpless in the society,
And those whose hard-earned income fails to meet their basic needs,
Those whose running businesses have stalled,
The ones who have lost their jobs,
Whose life has stalled for any reason,
The disabled,
The needy wayfarer, son of the street, the homeless, the one who travels to you for assistance,
Those who ask for help, and
Those whose necks are burdened with any kind of bondage, oppression, crushing debts and extreme hardship of labor.
(And righteous are) those who strive to establish the institution of Salaat, (2:3. 2:53)
And help set up the Economic System of Zakaat.
They are true to their pledge whenever they make one.
And they remain steadfast in physical or emotional distress and in times of peril.
It is they who have proven themselves to be true, and it is they who are living upright.
[2:4, 3:91-92 Yateem, Miskeen, Ibn-is-Sabeel, Fir-Riqaab, carry all the meanings rendered above. Please also note that the Qur’an has named above the well-known five “Articles of Faith.” But belief in Taqdeer = Predetermined destiny, has been interjected in the fabricated Ajami accounts as the sixth article of Faith by ‘Imams’, making Muslims fatalistic in their thought and behavior. The Qur’an nowhere mentions Taqdeer or the predestined fates of individuals. Qadar or Taqdeer always denote the Law, the due measure of all things appointed by God. And man determines his own destiny by following or defying those Laws]

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