20:79

by Fadil @, Yaounde-Cameroon, Sunday, November 11, 2012, 08:20 (1862 days ago)

Salamum alaykum to all

QXPV

20:70 Then the debaters fell down prostrating themselves, and exclaimed "We have come to believe in the Sustainer of Aaron and Moses!"

physical or mental prostration?

Salam

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, November 12, 2012, 09:12 (1861 days ago) @ Fadil

20:70 Then the debaters fell down prostrating themselves, and exclaimed "We have come to believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses!"

The word in the verse is sujood:-

20:70 Faolqiya alssaharatu sujjadan qaloo amanna birabbi haroona wamoosa

Derived from
س ج د = Siin-Jiim-Dal = lowly, humble, submissive, worship, adore, prostrate, make obeisance, lower/bend oneself down towards the ground, lower the head, to salute/honour/magnify, to pay respect, to stand up, to look continuedly and tranquily.

In the context of the Quran, sujood is used to those who submit to the revelation of Allah, either naturally, from the following verse, or an act of will, as in the case of 20:70.

13:15 Walillahi yasjudu man fee alssamawati waal-ardi tawAAan wakarhan wathilaluhum bialghuduwwi waal-asali
13:15And before Allah bow, willingly or unwillingly, all beings that are in the heavens and earth, as do their shadows in the mornings and evenings (3:82, 41:11).

So the verse should be understood as:-
20:70 The clergy of Pharaoh openly accepted their weakness and exclaimed, "Surely we proclaim our Eiman on the Rabb of Moses and Aaron

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by Dr Zakiya Ansari MD, India, Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 13:22 (1860 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Please explain :
FA-ULQIYAS | So were thrown down 20:70

19:58
KHARRU | they fell
SUJJDAV | prostrating
WA BUKIYYA | and weeping.
# How can one fall in respect?

27:24
QAWMAHA | her people
YASJUDU | prostrating
LISH SHAMSI |to the Sun
MIN DUNILLAAH | instead of God
# How can people respect Sun? both acts should be same for Sun and God

Plz refer Word 2 Word understanding :
http://www.emuslim.com/quran/Translation_English.asp

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 08:49 (1859 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

19:58
KHARRU | they fell
SUJJDAV | prostrating
WA BUKIYYA | and weeping.
# How can one fall in respect?

I will give you the idiomatic meaning of this verse but as soon as I say this you may accuse me of resorting to allegorical meanings when many scholars read this as a straight forward literal understanding of falling down, prostrating and crying. Yusuf Ali renders the verse as:-

19:58. Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of ((Allah)) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.

I have looked up the various stories surrounding Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses etc and I have not come across any verse which states that they fell down and cried. I can only find a similar phrase in:-

17:107. Say: "Whether ye believe in it or not, it is true that those who were given knowledge beforehand, when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration,
17:108. "And they say: 'Glory to our Lord! Truly has the promise of our Lord been fulfilled!'"
17:109. They fall down on their faces in tears, and it increases their (earnest) humility.

But, when we look closely at verse 109, we see that the word translated as faces by Yusuf Ali is in fact the word for chin! As in the following translation:-

17:109 And so they fall down on their chins, weeping, and increasing in humility.

In order to continue the belief that falling down, prostration and weeping are real acts, Yusuf Ali and any number of other scholars put faces in the verse since chin does not make sense! Going back to the stories of other Messengers in the Quran, we see that they all did one thing; when they were ummi, knowing only worldly things, without knowledge of divine truth, they reasoned and thought about the problems mankind faced and then were given revelation that showed them the way and which they accepted. They did not all fall down and start to cry. Words have meanings, and Dr Shabbir has put the meaning in brackets after his translation:-

19:58 These are some of the Prophets whom God blessed. They all were from the descendants of Adam, the early humans. The descendants of those whom We carried with Noah on the Ark, and the descendants of Abraham and Israel (Jacob). We guided them and selected them. Whenever the messages of the Most Gracious were conveyed to them, they would fall down prostrate in tears. [Devoted to Submission, they put their hearts into their mission]

Also, on 19:58, Mohammad Assad says it means “all of the prophets were conscious of being no more than mortal, HUMBLE SERVANTS OF GOD.”

The verse that confirms the weeping of people before the Lord comes from the Bible, as in:-

Deuteronomy 1:44-46 New International Version (NIV)
44 The Amorites who lived in those hills came out against you; they chased you like a swarm of bees and beat you down from Seir all the way to Hormah. 45 YOU CAME BACK AND WEPT BEFORE THE LORD, BUT HE PAID NO ATTENTION TO YOUR WEEPING AND TURNED A DEAF EAR TO YOU. 46 And so you stayed in Kadesh many days—all the time you spent there.

Have we not allowed our beliefs to be overly influenced by the Bible? When we see a verse that depicts an unusual act, falling on chins, weeping, should we not look for an intellectual meaning rather than a Biblical one?

27:24
QAWMAHA | her people
YASJUDU | prostrating
LISH SHAMSI |to the Sun
MIN DUNILLAAH | instead of God
# How can people respect Sun? both acts should be same for Sun and God

Respect is not the word I used, it is “submit to the revelation of Allah”. Those who follow/worship the religion of Sun do not just bow down to the celestial orb, but follow all that the priests tell them to do; they submit to these religious practices.

27:24 "I found her and her people worshiping the sun instead of God. Their ego makes them think that they are doing right. Satan (the priesthood of the Sun-Temple) hinders them from the right path. So they cannot find the right way."

We have it ingrained into our consciences that sujood means a physical prostration when it Quranically means accepting the instructions of Allah.

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by Dr Zakiya Ansari MD, India, Thursday, November 15, 2012, 11:00 (1858 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

You Wrote :-

27:24 "I found her and her people worshiping the sun instead of God. Their ego makes them think that they are doing right. Satan (the priesthood of the Sun-Temple) hinders them from the right path. So they cannot find the right way."
We have it ingrained into our consciences that sujood means a physical prostration when it Quranically means accepting the instructions of Allah.

My Question :-

How can Bird HudHud (Hoopoe)realise that :
Their ego makes them think that they are doing right. Satan (the priesthood of the Sun-Temple) hinders them from the right path. So they cannot find the right way."
# Bird can see only Physical Acts! Pet Bird of Prophet Sulemaan may have seen physical prostration of Prophet Sulemaan and his followers before his first visit to Kingdom of Queen Bilqees in Sheba where the he noticed the same act of the people to the Sun, Hence the bird Said:
27:24
QAWMAHA | her people
YASJUDU | prostrating
LISH SHAMSI |to the Sun
MIN DUNILLAAH | instead of God

PLEASE Explain through Word to Word understanding of Qur'an, not by MA/SA/AY/others exposition of Qur'an.

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Friday, November 16, 2012, 08:48 (1857 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

Your question “How can Bird HudHud (Hoopoe)realise that......

Answer

HudHud was not a bird but a commander in the army of Suleman. Birds do not speak except parrots and these only repeat words they are taught. They cannot speak or hold a conversation, neither can ants.

Regarding the verse you quoted:-

27:24
QAWMAHA | her people
YASJUDU | WORSHIP/ADORE
LISH SHAMSI |to the Sun
MIN DUNILLAAH | instead of God

The translation by Yusuf Ali and another 5 out of 7 translators have the words worship or adore in them, not prostration. Can they all be wrong?

27:24 Wajadtuha waqawmaha yasjudoona lilshshamsi min dooni Allahi wazayyana lahumu alshshaytanu aAAmalahum fasaddahum AAani alssabeeli fahum la yahtadoona
27:24"I found her and her people worshipping the sun besides God: Satan has made their deeds seem pleasing in their eyes, and has kept them away from the Path,- so they receive no guidance,-

And translated by 4 out of 7 translators of the Quran, including Yusuf Ali as “adore”
where the same word is used:-

41:37Wamin ayatihi allaylu waalnnaharu waalshshamsu waalqamaru la tasjudoo lilshshamsi wala lilqamari waosjudoo lillahi alathee khalaqahunna in kuntum iyyahu taAAbudoona
41:37. Among His Sings are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Adore not the sun and the moon, but adore Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.

We can clearly see that the word can be correctly understood as worship or adore the sun and does not have to mean physical prostration.

I know the word can mean physical prostration as many human beings bow down to statues etc, but Quranically we are not asked to do this physical act but only humbly, intellectually, honestly accept and follow the teachings of the Quran.

Please reflect upon this and the idiomatic meaning of falling on ones chin which I mentioned in the previous post.

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by Fadil @, Yaounde-Cameroon, Friday, November 16, 2012, 14:09 (1857 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Salamun alaykum to all,
Million thanks for all the discussions. They enlighten me so much. May Allah give you more knowledge

salam

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by Dr Zakiya Ansari MD, India, Friday, November 16, 2012, 17:33 (1857 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Your Answer :
HudHud was not a bird but a commander in the army of Suleman.

My Question:
How did you know Sir that HudHud (Hoopoe) was a commander in the army of Prophet Suleman?

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by Advocate Yusuf Shaikh, India, Saturday, November 17, 2012, 15:48 (1856 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

Dear Sister Dr Zakiya Ansari,

In my lifespan I have studied more than 40 English Expositions of Holy Qur'an but two days back, after reading your post I studied some verses in word to word understanding when I felt that I've never interpreted Qur'an!
And now I recognize that Exposition with Idiomatic understanding are only to justify personal Concept.
Thanking you for giving me some Light.

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by Dr Zakiya Ansari MD, India, Sunday, November 18, 2012, 11:38 (1855 days ago) @ Advocate Yusuf Shaikh

Dear brother Advocate Yusuf Shaikh,

Thank you for your appreciation!
We can't comprehend so merely by expositions as the way we understand by word to word translation.

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, November 19, 2012, 13:48 (1854 days ago) @ Advocate Yusuf Shaikh

Please use the dictionary method you employed for the Quran to understand the following:-

“A bird in hand is worth two in the bush”

Or

"I Wandered Lonely as a Cloud”

Or any Allama Iqbal poetry

The Quran states in the following that it as literal verses and allegorical verses:-

3:7 (The Book He has sent down, bears an important Principle.) He is the One Who has revealed to you (O Prophet) the scripture. In it some verses are literal, while some verses are allegorical. The verses that pertain to Permanent Values have been presented literally. These verses, Muhkamat, are the essence of the Divine law. But abstract phenomena, some historical events, and the World of the Unseen are described in similes, metaphors and allegories (Mutashaabihaat) for your understanding. But those who are given to crookedness in their hearts pursue the allegories and try to give them literal meanings, thus creating dissension of thought. None encompasses their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Hand, His Book of Decrees, the exact mode of revelation on the heart of the Messengers, the Eternity) but God. Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep learning from them. They proclaim the belief that the entire Book is from their Lord. As the human knowledge evolves, more and more allegories will unfold their literal meaning. But only the men and women of understanding will bear this fact in mind.
[Every verse of the Qur‟an is Muhkam, absolute truth. The context enables us to understand which ones are to be taken literally and which ones are to be taken allegorically. Each verse in the Book complements another. 11:1, 39:23, 41:53, 47:20, 74:31]

Why then do you dismiss the opinion of scholars regarding the meaning of symbolic verses?

I look at them and ask myself, do they make sense? When the literal meaning means believing in fantastic/magical/miraculous occurrences, then interpreting the words in a dictionary manner will not bring out the meaning of the sentence.

Yusuf Ali 3:49 As a messenger to the Children of Israel: "I come to you with a sign from your Lord-I create for you from clay the shape of a bird, then I blow into it, and it becomes a live bird by GOD's leave. I restore vision to the blind, heal the leprous, and I revive the dead by GOD's leave. I can tell you what you eat, and what you store in your homes. This should be a proof for you, if you are believers.

Or

Shabbir Ahmed 3:49 And he will be a Messenger to the Children of Israel. He will say to them, “I come to you with Revelation from your Lord. If you follow me, I will raise you from dust to the heights of glory by the Command of Allah (7:176). The blind among you will begin to see the Truth. Those of you who are spotted with sin, I will heal them, and I shall grant real life to those who are just dragging on without purpose; all according to the Laws of Allah. I am here to establish justice and equity. I shall see to it how much you hoard in your houses and how much you spend on the community. My teachings are sufficient signs for you to believe.”

You have free choice which makes intellectual sense to you.

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by Dr Zakiya Ansari MD, India, Tuesday, November 20, 2012, 14:47 (1853 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Please read Word2Word Qur'an understanding once,
you will only understand what God wants!

20:79

by Advocate Yusuf Shaikh, India, Wednesday, November 21, 2012, 06:17 (1852 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

Sister, You are absolutely right and correct!

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, November 22, 2012, 17:44 (1851 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

It is all very well congratulating each other but you are not answering the questions I have posed over the understanding of symbolic verses in the Quran. Here is the word to word translation you directed me to:-

3:49 And (make him) a Messenger to (the) Children (of) Israel, ‘Indeed, I [surely] (have) come (to) you with a sign from your Lord that I design for you from (the) clay like the form (of) the bird, then I breath into it and it becomes a bird by (the) permission (of) Allah. And I cure the blind, and the leper, and I give life (to) the dead by (the) permission (of) Allah.

What am I to understand from this literal translation? Are we to reject Surah 3 verse 7 and treat all verses as literal when the vast majority of scholars have told us that we should not do so for what are clearly allegorical/idiomatic verses?

Does Allah have a hand?

3:26 Say, "Our god: possessor of all sovereignty. You grant sovereignty to whomever You choose, You remove sovereignty from whomever You choose. You grant dignity to whomever You choose, and commit to humiliation whomever You choose. In YOUR HAND are all provisions. You are Omnipotent.

If He has a hand, then He has an arm, a shoulder, head, legs... But literal cannot be understood because of :-

6:103 No vision can grasp Him while He grasps all vision. He is Unfathomable, Aware.

112.1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
112.2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
112.3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
112.4. And there is none like unto Him.

Where do we stand now? Can I pat myself on the back with self-congratulations and “well dones”? Word for word means He has a hand, symbolic meaning makes Him in control of everything. You choose or give me an argument against my understanding.

At least an “amicus curiae” presents some evidence!

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by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, November 19, 2012, 13:49 (1854 days ago) @ Dr Zakiya Ansari MD

We are going off topic and we had a lovely discussion on talking ants and hoopee birds at the following link on this website.

http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=328


I have also added some more of my thoughts on the topic of hudhud at the bottom of the posts.

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by amirabbas, Iran, Tuesday, November 20, 2012, 05:31 (1853 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Salam,

it really would make a mockery of the Qur'an if we consider literal ANTS!

Ants must have their colonies well-established and secure underground and it must be built away from the roads and transportation routs. Obviously Solomon's army were using a secure road and passage like any other army in the world and i believe ant's colonies are insignificant to a huge army and it would make it irrelevant to even mention them in a serious manner.

Unless we take An-Naml the name of a valley resided by human beings it doesn't make sense!

Also the Qur'an is using familiar names that were known to Solomon and his people. Al-HudHud, Al-Tayr or An-Naml. If these were mere creatures i believe they must have been expressed in other ways.

Humanity is able to communicate with other animals in order to teach them something but first of all it needs a huge amount of time and energy and secondly to what extent can animals learn and perform the taskz we want? Why would an army use birds/animals that cannot be relied upon very much instead of intelligent human beings?

They didn't have satellites and navigation systems in those days so they must have had fast cavalry and observant spies!

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by Advocate Yusuf Shaikh, India, Wednesday, November 21, 2012, 06:18 (1852 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

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by amirabbas, Iran, Monday, November 12, 2012, 10:05 (1861 days ago) @ Fadil

Salam,

what do you think? Physical or mental submission?

I believe it's not important if they fall down on earth to show their respect and submission or otherwise stood straight and proved their conviction.

Look at what they answered to Pharaoh when he threatened them:

20:72 They answered, "Never shall we choose you above the clear evidence of the truth that has come to us, nor prefer you over Him Who brought us into being! So issue whatever decree you will. Your judgment can only touch us in this worldly life.

This must be interesting to those who prefer to READ NAMAZ instead of following what God has revealed and ordered to be done!

20:79

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 16:31 (1860 days ago) @ Fadil

w/salaam,

You may find this analysis helpful:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Quote from above article.

Re: 7:120, 20:70, 26:46
20:70 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic: uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context. IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? Unlikely. Also note how Pharaoh objects to their statements, and there is no reference to a prostration. It is likely an archetype such as Pharaoh would not want them to prostrate to anyone but him.
Being thrown/cast SJD can be shown in this case to be a precursor to a realisation / change of mindset [see 48:29 above for a similar implication].

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