the meaning of "al masjid al haram"

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Tuesday, August 06, 2013, 10:31 (1478 days ago)

peace all,

After a thorough study of the subject, here are my findings:

http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

Conclusion from above article:
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 17:1-8, 17:60, 2:142-150).


You will have to read the article to perhaps understand the conclusions.

Any feedback, especially corrections, welcome.

Location of "al masjid al haram"

by Daayaa Jeevaa, India, Wednesday, August 07, 2013, 18:25 (1477 days ago) @ Waqas

1) Bakkaah=Makkaah or not?
2) Pl let me know right location of Bakkaah & Makkaah according to
03:96 (bibakkat)
48:24 (makkata)
3) Explain Hudallil Aalameen (03:96)

Location of "al masjid al haram"

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Wednesday, August 07, 2013, 21:46 (1476 days ago) @ Daayaa Jeevaa

Salaam,

I will assume you have read the article I linked to.

1) Bakkaah=Makkaah or not?

What I consider the meaning of "makkah" to be is stated in the article, although it meaning Makkah (as in city of) is possible. I do not equate bakkah and makkah.

2) Pl let me know right location of Bakkaah & Makkaah according to
03:96 (bibakkat)
48:24 (makkata)

In my view, knowing the original locations of such places (if one takes those words as places) is not necessary, as The Quran clearly states in 3:96 "...the first house set-down for mankind..." implying there can be others. What Abraham did is given to us as an example, a blueprint/model, one which the messenger of Quran ultimately brought to fruition in the location he happened to be in.

3) Explain Hudallil Aalameen (03:96)

Means "guidance for the beings". If someone sets up a sanctuary of sorts under God's system, then that place/system/people can act as a guidance for others.

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Dr Linda, India, Thursday, August 08, 2013, 10:19 (1476 days ago) @ Waqas

Muslims performs Haj/Umra in Kaabah (Mecca), was it built buy Prophet Abraham or not? (02:127)
Pls Reply Yes/No ...
No description.

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Thursday, August 08, 2013, 19:23 (1475 days ago) @ Dr Linda

Yes, see 2:127.

--
Salaam and thank you.

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Habiba Moiz, Goa., Friday, August 09, 2013, 11:48 (1475 days ago) @ Laurie Hamdani

Dear sister, location not mentioned in HQ:2:127!

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Krishna Mehta, Ahmadabad, India., Friday, August 09, 2013, 12:49 (1475 days ago) @ Habiba Moiz

Location of
Hudallil Aalameen
is in :
1) 03:96
Bibakkat = Bakkah = Makkah
(old name of makkah is bakkah)

2) 48:24
Makkata

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by drsam ⌂ @, Vadodara, Gujarat, India, Saturday, August 10, 2013, 06:13 (1474 days ago) @ Krishna Mehta

i dont agree that bakkah and makkah are same... because neither quran nor any other historical recod support this notion....

plus there is a valley of bakkah in palestine also... so the ibrahim built house of bakkah may be the one in palestine the jerusalem ...

--
DRSAM

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by Krishna Mehta, Ahmedabad., Sunday, August 11, 2013, 11:44 (1473 days ago) @ drsam

You wrote :
i dont agree that bakkah and makkah are same... because neither quran nor any other historical recod support this notion....
plus there is a valley of bakkah in palestine also... so the ibrahim built house of bakkah may be the one in palestine the jerusalem ...
Dear Dr Sohil Ahmad Momim (SAM)
1) At present you are translating QXP in Gujarati while you disagree with QXP :-)
Please read
QXP :2:125 :
Remember, We appointed the House a means to achieve unity among all
mankind, and thus, a source of peace and security. So,attain the stature of
Abraham recalling his firm stand (for Monotheism) and closely follow the
Divine Commands. We did take a Covenant from Abraham and Ishmael, “Keep
My House clean of all falsehood for those who rally around it and those who
strive hard for the noble objectives andthose who submit in humility to the
Divine Commands."
[Al-Bait = The House= Ka’bah = The Symbolic House of God in Makkah = The
meeting point for all mankind = The Source of peace, security and unity for all
humanity.

2) Dr Shabbir Ahmed MD
Wrote :
The most authentic Qur'an confirms that the Symbolic House of God (BAITULLAH) was built by Prophet Abraham (a.s.) assisted by his son Ismail (a.s.). It is also a Symbol of Monotheism and a Center for the unity of mankind.
According to HISTORY OF ISLAM (Urdu) by Allama Aslam Jairajpuri, it was built around 1800 BC in the easy to build cubical shape. Although theArabic language was just beginning to take shape, the local Qahtani Tribe of Makkah that spoke a language precursor to Arabic named it Ka'bah.
Diverging reports onthe history of Ka'bah that it was built by Adam or by Noah (a.s) should bedisregarded on the authority of the Qur'an.
"Just as God is One, mankind is one", is a reported saying of the exalted Prophet Muhammad. Allah = RABBIL'AALAMEEN (Sustainer of the Worlds/all nations)= RABBINNAAS (Sustainer of Mankind) lend credibility to this saying.
10:19 All mankind were but one community (and aremeant to be so); then they differed. Had it not been for aWord that went forth from your Lord(the Law of Free will), He would havejudged their disputes immediately. [2:30, 2:213, 2:256, 11:118, 16:9, 76:2-3]
3:95 Say, “God has declared the truth. Follow, then, the Creed of Abraham, the upright who shunned all falsehood. He was not of those who choose authorities besides God.”
3:96 He erected the First House (Sanctuary) appointed for all mankind, at the blessed Bakkah. It isto serve as a beacon of light for all humanity (in order to regain their lost unity).
[2:125. Bakkah came to be known as Makkah later. In the ancient Arabic dialect b was interchangeable with m]http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119159391

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by drsam ⌂ @, Vadodara, Gujarat, India, Sunday, August 11, 2013, 16:56 (1473 days ago) @ Krishna Mehta

peace

i am not disagreeing but i am still not sure about it... researching more..

and i am not translating qxp in gujarati.. currently i am working on true history and false belief

--
DRSAM

Location...QXP is 100 % correct or not ??

by Krishna Mehta, India, Monday, August 12, 2013, 04:18 (1472 days ago) @ drsam

You wrote :
i am not disagreeing but i am still not sure about it...
Dear Dr Sohil Ahmad Momim (SAM)
Please let me known that as per your understanding,QXP is 100 % correct or not ??
Please reply ...

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by Yamin Meruti., India, Thursday, August 15, 2013, 07:44 (1469 days ago) @ Krishna Mehta

QXP is Not 100 % correct.

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Thursday, August 15, 2013, 14:54 (1469 days ago) @ Yamin Meruti.

I would be interested in where QXP is not correct.
We are all learning and I would welcome any evidence to disprove a statement or interpretaion of the Quran in QXP.

Looking forward to your response.

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by Yamin Meruti., India., Thursday, August 15, 2013, 18:50 (1469 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Friday, August 16, 2013, 07:40 (1468 days ago) @ Yamin Meruti.

Someone posted a comment on the article you directed me to and I could not do a better job at ridiculing the man’s understanding of QXP than this:-

Youssoufa BeleAugust 19, 2011 at 4:29 PM
Sir,
Thank you for taking your time to write this interesting article. I read and re-read it. I didn't know about Dr Ahmed Shabbir until I read your article and find out who that man was. Sincerely speaking, your arguments are so weak, very weak to a point of insulting human intelligence. I was just puffed off when you started getting your definition from Google. This is childish kind of research. Dr Shabbir translation makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks a million for making me discover his blog. QXP is the recommended quran translation. It is really what I needed. It is free from nonsense. It is the best quran english translation today. Most of the translations you are quoting are loaded with nonsense traditions such as birds stoning people, throwing prophet Ibrahim into the fire, nonsense magic competition between Prophet Musa and Pharaoh men, etc. They are all translated based on bukhari and his friends religion under the name of sunna and hadiths. The pure quran is free of such nonsensical stuff. If I were you, I could have just deleted this article. It is portraying your defective intelligence. Please, free your mind and get guided.

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by Dr Yousaf Badodawala, Baroda India., Friday, August 16, 2013, 05:49 (1468 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Physical Prayer has no room in Deen while QXP inform us that Hazrat Umar razi had perform Physical Prayer in Jerusalem !! (pls refer chapter 17 in QXP)

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by Bahadur Thara, India, Friday, August 16, 2013, 08:43 (1468 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Please refer book '200 Errors of QXP' published by Ahkaamist Publisher (Bhilai, India) in 2011.

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Tuesday, August 20, 2013, 14:42 (1464 days ago) @ Bahadur Thara

No translation of the Quran can be 100% correct because it is based on the intellect and understanding of the translator. Dr Shabbir has said that he corrected Allama GA Parwez sahebs exposition of the Quran at over 600 places, but he is the first to say that his is still undergoing development.

As explained elsewhere, QXI is an important translation as it seeks to explain what the Quran means rather than give a literal word for word translation of the Arabic. This means it does not sit well with the hadith based, ‘follow our ancestors’ understanding, even though they were only human beings, giving what their minds understood at that time.

If your reference is to another backward sect who reject any reasoned intellectual discussion on the Quran because everything is fixed by those same ancestors, then I see no reason to read it.

We all should start or continue to think about what we believe, bearing in mind that even the Arabic Quran requires intellect to understand it , and being Arabic speakers makes no difference, as the wahabi’s amply demonstrate.

Location...QXP is Not 100 % correct.

by Waqas ⌂ @, UK, Thursday, August 22, 2013, 15:01 (1462 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

I agree, no translation is perfect.

Referring to the original article of this thread, it points out the many problems for understanding "al masjid al haram" as "Sacred Masjid" as done in QXP and other translations.

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, Sunday, September 01, 2013, 20:03 (1451 days ago) @ Krishna Mehta

Bakkah and Makkah same? =-O=-O oh my even an illiterate will tell you it's not.. :-)

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by jawaid ahmed,uk @, Monday, September 02, 2013, 15:53 (1451 days ago) @ Jose Rizalino Sarmiento

Languages develop over time and there is good historical evidence for the change of Arabic words from B to the M. Hence Bakkah became Makkah

3:96 (SA) In fact, he erected the first Sanctuary appointed for humankind at Bakkah (later known as Makkah) a blessed Beacon of guidance for all people.

Have you any HISTORICAL FACTS that put the last Messenger in any other location other than what we know as present day Makkah or Medina?

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, saudi arabia, Thursday, September 19, 2013, 16:20 (1434 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

Salam bro Jawaid


You wrote:

Languages develop over time and there is good historical evidence for the change of Arabic words from B to the M. Hence Bakkah became Makkah

Well that's true languages do develop and change overtime but this is not the case with the arabic language. In fact in pre-Islamic era arabia there is a famous port in arabia felix called al Mukha and up to this day, it is still called al Mukha by the arabs and al Mocha by the West. Notice the M didn't metamorphosed to B. Furthermore, you seem to forget that God says there's no changing His words. If His word can be changed, then He lied?

you wrote:

3:96 (SA) In fact, he erected the first Sanctuary appointed for humankind at Bakkah (later known as Makkah) a blessed Beacon of guidance for all people.


you are twisting God's words bro

3:96. Inna awwala baytin wudia linnasi lalladhi bi bakkata mubarakan wa hudan lil alamin
The first house appointed for men was that at Bakka; full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of being
3:97. Fihi ayatun bayyinatun maqamu ibrahima wa man dakhalahu kana aminan wa lillahi alannasi hijju al bayti mani istataa ilayhi sabila wa man kafara fa inna Allaha ghaniyyun ani al alamin

IN IT are Signs manifest the STATION OF ABRAHAM whoever ENTERS IT attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to God those who can afford the journey, but if any deny faith, God stands not in need of any of His creatures.

you wrote:
Have you any HISTORICAL FACTS that put the last Messenger in any other location other than what we know as present day Makkah or Medina?

THE QUR'AN STATES THAT THE PROPHET LIVED BY THE PLACE WHERE THEY WHERE ABLE TO PASS BY THE RUINS WHERE THE PREVIOUS PEOPLE OF PROPHET LOT LIVED. We now know that the people of prophet Lot was destroyed by a violent volcanic eruption. Are there any known dormant volcano in the environs of Makkah?
Makkah, for all you know, is not known in ancient times. A Greek geographer describes the place from north to south as Taima, followed by Iattripa (Yathrib), then another town, then Macoraba. Unfortunately it was years ago and I cannot remember now the website because then my mind's clouded with sunni beliefs. Now that I am able to jump out of the box, realization dawned upon me of the importance of such priceless piece of information. Islam, the Din given to us by God through His Messenger, is not the same as it was when the Prophet first proclaim the revelation from his mouth. Islam today comes from the mouths of corrupt ulamas greedy for power and position amongst the unsuspecting masses. God has given no authority to any of them, rather they crowned themselves with authority in the guise of obeying God and His messenger.

Location...as per QXP,Bakkah and Makkah are same !!

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, saudi arabia, Thursday, September 19, 2013, 20:38 (1433 days ago) @ jawaid ahmed,uk

PTOLEMY'S SURVEY AND THE LOCATION OF MACORABA

The Greek geographer, Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, Egypt, was born in the year 90 A.D. and died in 168 A.D.  He wrote Almonagest, a chief astronomical work, and another work about astrology called Tetrabilos. Around the year 150 A.D. he dedicated himself to the study of the earth's geography - more specifically, cartographical representation, or mapping of the earth.  He was inspired by the work of several other geographers who lived before him, including Marinus, who lived from 70 A.D. to 130 A.D. These geographers pioneered the concept of latitude and longitude lines for world maps. Ptolemy enhanced the concept of the latitude and longitudes. Ptolemy reduced the latitude and longitude that Marinus has established before. Ptolemy tried to document in his geographical work, simply called Geography, the latitude and longitude coordinates, also called meridians lines, for the important locations marked on the maps of his time. Most scholars doubt that the maps which included his latitude and longitude coordinates were actually drawn by him.  But they do believe that other geographers used his information when making their maps.

    Ptolemy's geography provides valuable help in locating places that existed in his time, but we should consider some disclaimers that he mentions in his work. In second book Ptolemy mentions that the locations of some of the places or cities that were documented more recently, with respect to his time, are actually estimated regarding their proximity to more established places or cities.   When compared to the latitude and longitude system we use today, his system seems crude and inaccurate, yet, it is still helpful to know about the recently-discovered places which didn't appear in previous geographical surveys. We can establish where newer cities are located in relation to older ones. It's helpful to know whether the cities in question are south or north of an old city, or whether they are east or west.

    From a practical standpoint, Ptolomy's criteria proves valuable when looking for other cities in the Middle East mentioned by him, or even those in his own country, Egypt. Based on these facts, his work helps us resolve the location problem for some cities, such as Macoraba, which appeared in his generation.

   In book six, chapter seven, of his work titled Geography, Ptolemy documents the latitude and longitude coordinates of several landmarks in Arabia.  By studying these locations and coordinates, we notice once again that the city of Mecca is never mentioned. In fact, Ptolomy doesn't mention any cities in the strip of land where Mecca was eventually built.

    Macoraba was a city in the Arabian interior which was mentioned by Ptolemy. Some people wanted to assume that Macoraba was actually Mecca. Macoraba had appeared recently, with respect to Ptolemy's time. This assumption would result in the conclusion that Mecca was built around the middle of the 2nd century A.D. However, even if this were true, it wouldn't support the claim that Mecca was an old city existing from the time of Abraham. Upon further study of the facts concerning Macoraba, we can conclude with certainty that Macoraba can't be Mecca, and we can refute the idea that Mecca was built in the 2nd century A.D. All the facts point to the historical argument that Mecca was constructed in the 4th century A.D. Since Macoraba is not pronounced similar to Mecca, the scholar Crone suggested that the location of Maqarib, near Yathrib, was actually Macoraba. Maqarib is mentioned by Yaqut al-Hamawi, an Arab geographer who lived from 1179 to1229 A.D., in his geographical dictionary Mujam al-Buldan. This location is more acceptable than Mecca for the modern-day location of Macoraba, because Maqarib is closer in pronunciation to Macoraba than Mecca.  Another reason is that Maqarib, though it does not exactly fit the documented location of Macoraba, is closer to the location, according to the latitude and longitude of Ptolemy, than Mecca is to the documented location of Macoraba.

    In order to determine the exact location of Macoraba, scholars have looked to the city of Lathrippa, mentioned by Ptolemy at longitude of 71, as a reference.  Lathrippa is accepted by most scholars as the city of Yathrib, a city documented in the historical record. Ptolemy placed the city of Macoraba at 73 20 longitude which means about three and a third degrees east of Yathrib, while Mecca is west of Yathrib. So Macoraba can't be the city of Mecca, nor a city in the direction where Mecca was later built.  Macoraba should be located deeper into the interior of Arabia, or toward the eastern coast of Arabia.

    We have just analyzed the longitude; now let's turn to the latitude. When we study latitude we find more data concerning the historical location of Macoraba. Ptolemy described Macoraba, not as the next city south of Lathrippa, or Yathrib, but the sixth city to the south. While the city of Carna is the first city to the south of Lathrippa, Macoraba is the sixth city to the south. Carna was a well-known Yemeni city, belonging to the Minaean kingdom mentioned by Strabo.  That is significant, because Strabo described the main tribes of southern Arabia in these words:

The extreme part of the country is occupied by the four largest tribes; by the Minaeans - whose largest city is Carna; next to these, by the Sabaeans, whose metropolis is Mariaba; third by the Cattabanians, whose royal seat is called Tamna; and the farthest toward the east, the Chatramotitae, meaning Hadramout, whose city is Sabata.

 

Carna, in the past, was known as the most important and the largest city of the Yemen Kingdom of Ma'in. Carna was a significant city of Arabia which Ptolemy couldn't miss. Because Macoraba was listed as the fifth city south of Carna, we understand Ptolemy used Carna as a reference point for the five cities he listed south of Carna, included Macoraba. We can't make Lathrippa a reference point for locating Macoraba since Lathrippa is farther north of Macoraba,  but Macoraba's location is south of the famous old Minaean city of Carna. We can only conclude that by latitude, Macoraba is in south Arabia, south of the Yemeni city of Carna. However, by longitude, Ptolemy placed it closer to Carna.  By any measure, Macoraba must be near Carna, in Yemen.

    I think we should go more east of Yathrib to identify Mokoraba mentioned by Ptolemy. In fact, Pliny mentions a city with the name Mochorba, and he said it was a port of Oman on the Hadramout shore in South Arabia. It's also possible that Macoraba is derived from Mochorba.

     Since Macoraba never appears in any literature other than the narration of Ptolemy, it must have been a small settlement or tiny village which disappeared in Ptolomy's time during the 2nd century A.D. Probably a small Omani tribe emigrated from the port of Mochorba toward the north of Yemen, near Carna the old Minaean city of Yemen, and established a small settlement which they named after their original city. The tribe would then have moved to another area in search of better living conditions, a usual migratory occurrence in Arabia. The fact that Macoraba never appears again in any other classical survey confirms the fact that it was a small provisional settlement of a small tribe, and not a significant town.

    If a case for the name of Machorba should be opened, it should be seen in relation with the southern Arabian city of Mochorba, and not with Mecca. In the same manner, we see the city of New London in the United States as being named after the original city of London.  We can't open a case for the origin of the name of the American city apart from the English city after which it was named.

Location... True Qur'anic History and False Belief

by Dr Linda, India, Monday, August 12, 2013, 08:43 (1472 days ago) @ drsam

Dear Doctor Brother,

I am sorry to say that you dont agree that Bakkah and Makkah are same and currently you are translating also Dr Shabbir Ahmad's Qur'anic History related book namely 'True History and False Belief' while
Dr Shabbir Ahmad wrote in his QXP that Bakkah and Makkah are same :-)
Please read his words :-
Bakkah came to be known as Makkah later. In the ancient Arabic dialect "B" was interchangeable with "M"
# B(M)akkaah
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119159391

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, saudi arabia, Thursday, September 19, 2013, 17:01 (1434 days ago) @ Laurie Hamdani

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?
by Laurie Hamdani , Chicago, Thursday, August 08, 2013, 19:23 (42 days ago) @ Dr Linda

Yes, see 2:127.


Salam
Respected sister there is no Kaabah mentioned in the verse:


2:127 Wa-ith yarfaAAu ibraheemu alqawaAAida mina albayti wa-ismaAAeelu rabbana taqabbal minna innaka anta alssameeAAu alAAaleemu

2:127. And remember Abraham
And Ismā’īl raised
The foundations of the House
"Our Lord!
Accept from us:
For Thou art the All-Hearing,
The All-Knowing.

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by YousufAli Shaikh, India., India., Thursday, August 08, 2013, 20:01 (1475 days ago) @ Dr Linda

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Friday, August 09, 2013, 12:55 (1475 days ago) @ YousufAli Shaikh, India.

salaam,

That link states:
"Note: The Valley was a barren land, but Abraham settled his family in the town of Makkah, near the soon to be built Ka’bah."
when 14:37 states:
"Our Lord, indeed I have settled from my progeny in/by an uncultivated valley with (or 'in the presence of') Your al bayt al muharam...."

Thus, was it built or not built, according to such an understanding?


You may find this thread interesting, an attempt at chronological order of story of Abraham from Quran:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602123.0

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Friday, August 09, 2013, 12:49 (1475 days ago) @ Dr Linda

salaam,

There is no definitive evidence from Quran that the cuboid called Kabah in Mecca was built by Abraham. Certainly, a case could be made for this from Quran, but ultimately it would be an assumption.

You may find this article interesting:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Laurie Hamdani @, Chicago, Friday, August 09, 2013, 16:55 (1475 days ago) @ Waqas

Thank you for more detail - I stand corrected!

--
Salaam and thank you.

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Dr Linda, India, Friday, August 09, 2013, 18:00 (1475 days ago) @ Waqas

What is your understanding Mr Waqqaas?
The cuboid called Kabaah in Mecca/Makkaah/Bakkaah was not built by Prophet Abraham& Prophet Ishmael then at which location he did according to 02:127?
Prophet Abraham& Prophet Ishmael was Arab or not? They visited Mecca/Makkaah/Bakkaah or not?
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119192319

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Waqas ⌂ @, uk, Saturday, August 10, 2013, 17:23 (1474 days ago) @ Dr Linda

salaam Dr Linda,

What is your understanding Mr Waqqaas?
The cuboid called Kabaah in Mecca/Makkaah/Bakkaah was not built by Prophet Abraham& Prophet Ishmael then at which location he did according to 02:127?

I do not know. My view is that, as per Quran, it seems difficult to determine. Perhaps this is because such a detail is irrelevant.

Prophet Abraham& Prophet Ishmael was Arab or not?

I do not think so. My view is that, as per Quran, it seems difficult to determine. Perhaps this is because such a detail is irrelevant.

They visited Mecca/Makkaah/Bakkaah or not?

It is possible they were in bakkah (as in place), or that word could mean something else, e.g.
= Ba-Kaf-Kaf (e.g. bakka) = pounding or crushing (al-&unuqa: (on) the neck) (daqqul-&unuqa), distinguishing/ranking above others (farraqahu, kharaqahu), jostling, pressing or crowding(crowds:zahm), any crowding(or crowds), competition. (izdihaam) heaping/piling together/amassing (taraakib), super-imposition of things on top of other things (taraakim).....
From: http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

I do not think they were in Makkah (as in city of).

My view is that, as per Quran, it seems difficult to determine. Perhaps this is because such a detail is irrelevant.

#####

In Quran, Abraham was cited as an example, providing a blueprint/model which the messenger of Quran adopted in his location in order to bring to fruition God's system.

I am currently writing an article on hajj, so it will clarify my view further, God Willing.

as per QXP Kabah (makkah/mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham !!

by Krishna Mehta, Ahmedbad., Sunday, August 11, 2013, 12:14 (1473 days ago) @ Waqas

My Bro. Waqas,

If you agree with Dr ShabbirAhmad's
QXP then :
1) The cuboid called Kabaah in Mecca/Makkaah was built by Prophet Abraham & Prophet Ishmael.
2) As per QXP : 02:125 Mecca/Makkaah and Bakkaah are same.
3) As per QXP : 02:127 Prophet Abraham & Prophet Ishmael visited Mecca/Makkaah/Bakkaah.
Pls Read all 3 ref :
i) QXP : 2:125
Remember, We appointed the House a means to achieve unity among all mankind, and thus, a source of peace and security.
 So, attain the stature of Abraham recalling his firm stand (for Monotheism) and closely follow the Divine Commands. We did take a Covenant from Abraham and Ishmael, “Keep My House clean of all falsehood for those who rally around it and those who strive hard for the noble objectives and those who submit in humility to the Divine Commands."
[Al-Bait = The House = Ka’bah = The Symbolic House of God in Makkah = The meeting point for all mankind = The Source of peace, security and unity for all humanity. 2:142-143, 3:96, 5:97, 14:35, 22:25. Musalla = The ways to obey God. Maqam-e-Ibrahim = The stature of Abraham = The stand he took. Taifa = Those who might be diverse in color and geography but united in Ideology. Taaif = Watchman = Custodian = One who stands guard. Taifeen = Caretakers of humanity = Guardians of human rights. ‘Akafa = To prevent schism and discord = Set things right. 'Aakifeen = Those who strive for a noble objective = Those who prevent divisions = Who set things right.
Ishmael resided permanently in Makkah, while his father kept traveling between Hagar (Haajirah) in Makkah and Sarah in Can’aan (Palestine). Ishmael married a woman from the Qahtani Tribe of Jurham and became the ancestor of Musta Ribah (Arabianized tribes or the early Arabs). So the Arabs are, interestingly, descendants of a Hebrew father, Ishmael and a Qahtani Jurham mother from the Arabian Peninsula. They had twelve sons in their long and happy married life. The Qahtanis are still abundantly found in Arabia. They were a wandering tribe in Southern Arabia who had settled in Makkah before Ishmael, because of the (contrary to popular legend) pre-existing well of Zam-Zam. The “Wilderness of Beer-Sheba” of Genesis 21:14, embraces the Southern Palestine, and Hijaz (the mid-western Arabia). Therefore, the Bible and the Qur’an are in agreement concerning where Ishmael and his mother Hagar had settled after moving from Can’aan.
Here is a glimpse of history about Hagar and Ishmael as found in the Bible.
Genesis 17:20 - As for Ishmael, I have heard you (O Abraham); behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 21:17 - And God heard the voice of the lad (Ishmael); and the angel of God called to Hagar from the Heights, and said to her,"What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 21:20 - And God was with the lad, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran (Faran, Makkah).
This history also explains why the Qur’an repeatedly asserts that the Arabs had not received any scripture before the Qur’an. The Arabs, being the descendants of Ishmael, could only become a community long after Ishmael had passed on and when his progeny had multiplied with time. Note: The Valley was a barren land, but Abraham settled his family in the town of Makkah, near the soon to be built Ka’bah. So, contrary to popular legends, Abraham never left his family in the isolation of a desert]


ii) QXP :2:126

And Abraham prayed, “My Sustainer! Make this land a haven of peace and security, and provide its residents with plentiful sustenance; those who believe in God and the Last Day.” He answered, “I will also provide for those who disbelieve and let them enjoy for a short while, then I will commit them to the suffering of the fire, a miserable destiny!” [14:37, 17:18-20, 22:25, 95:3]


iii) QXP :2:127

As Abraham raised the foundations of the House together with Ishmael, they prayed earnestly, “Our Sustainer! Accept this (our service) from us. You are the Hearer, Knower.”

as per QXP Kabah (makkah/mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham !!

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, saudi arabia, Sunday, September 01, 2013, 20:31 (1451 days ago) @ Krishna Mehta

You sound so confident of your claims Mr. Krishna, but actually you're not so sharp..some details you have omitted or forgotten (?) to include in quoting 3:96..this verse speaks of BAYT not KA'BAH..and inside this BAYT (notice INSIDE) is the maqam Ibrahim..have you been to MAKKAH? if not just ask anyone who have been there: "where's the maqam Ibrahim?? " the answer surely, "it's a few meters outside the Ka'bah", now, do you notice the difference? or you choose to ignore?
Peace

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Vazir @, Sunday, August 11, 2013, 02:54 (1473 days ago) @ Dr Linda

Just to read and reflect to understand the Geography of Quranic narrations:

Queen of Sheba's temple restored
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1082648.stm

ANCIENT EGYPT KNEW NO PHARAOHS
http://ashraf62.wordpress.com/ancient-egypt-knew-no-pharaohs/

THE ARK OF THE COVENANT : EVIDENCE SUPPORTING THE ETHIOPIAN TRADITIONS
http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/amharic/holybooks/arkofthecovenent.pdf

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 1: The Search for Pharaoh
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132840113/Arabia-The-Untold-Story-Book-1-Search-for-Pharaoh

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 2: Road of the Patriarch
http://www.scribd.com/doc/132844965/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Book-2-Road-of-the-Patriarch

ARABIA: The Untold Story
Book 3: Israel and Sheba
http://www.scribd.com/doc/159441825/ARABIA-The-Untold-Story-Israel-and-Sheba

This research telling us different story than our current understanding with respect to Geography of Quranic narration.

And Lūṭ was one of the messengers * When We saved him and all his family * Except an old woman who perished * Then, We destroyed the rest. * And you pass by their ruins in the morning; * And in the night. Do you not comprehend? [37: 133 - 138].

What this verse is telling us is that town of Lut AH should be within radius of 50 kilometer, the distance a camel or horse can travel in a day.

Who inherited the land after Far’awn drowned?
So Far’awn sent gatherers to the towns * ….. * 57 So, We evicted them out of gardens and springs * 58 And treasures and an honorable station *59 As such, We made the Children of Israel inherit it all. [Quran, 26:53-59]

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Ramzanali babul, Muzaffarnagar, Monday, August 12, 2013, 12:52 (1472 days ago) @ Vazir

After migrating from Babylon, Prophet Abraham settled his younger son Isaac in Can'aan (Syria-Palestine). And he asked his elder son Ishmael tosacrifice the comfort of Can'aan and settle in Makkah to establish the first House of Monotheism.
Ishmael resided permanently in Makkah, while his father kept travelingbetween Hagar (Haajirah) in Makkah and Sarah in Can’aan (Syria-Palestine).
Ishmael married a woman from the Qahtani Tribe of Jurham and became the ancestor of Musta Ribah. Musta Ribah wandered theArabian Peninsula, and the Arabs descended from them, multiplying and becoming a distinct community a few centuries later.
So, interestingly the Arabs are the descendants of Prophet Ishmael and a Qahtani Jurham mother from the Arabian Peninsula. They hadtwelve sons in their long and happy married life. The Qahtanis are still abundantly found inArabia.
Some nomadic tribes more ancient than Abraham and Ishmael had settled in Makkah, a small but busy trade center in the peninsula.
The “Wilderness of Beer-Sheba” of Genesis 21:14, embraces the Southern Palestine, and Hijaz (the mid-western Arabia). Therefore, the Bible and the Qur’an are in agreement concerning where Ishmael and his mother Hagar had settled after movingfrom Can’aan.
Here is a glimpse of history about Hagar and Ishmael as found in the Bible.
Genesis 17:20 - As for Ishmael, I have heard you (O Abraham); behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 21:17 - And God heard the voice of the lad (Ishmael);and the angel of God called to Hagar from the Heights, and said to her,"What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not; for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him fast with your hand; for I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 21:20 - And God was with the lad, and he grew up;he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow. He lived in the wilderness of Paran (Faran, Makkah).
This history also explains why the Qur’an repeatedly asserts that the Arabs had not received any scripture before the Qur’an (28:46, 32:3, 36:6). The Arabs, being the descendants of Ishmael, could only become a community long after Ishmael had passed on and when his progeny had multiplied with time.
28:46 And neither were you present onthe slope of Mount Sinai when We called Moses. But you are sent as a grace from your Sustainer to warn people to whom no warner has come before you, so that they may reflect.
[32:3, 36:6. Prophet Ishmael, the ancestor of Arabs, cannot be considered a Prophet to them since Children of Ishmael multiplied and inhabited Arabia as the Arab community long after his death. See 2:125 and introduction to Surah 11 Hud]
32:3 And yet they assert, “He has invented it.” Nay, it is but the truth fromyour Sustainer, for you to warn a people to whom no warner has come before you, so that they may be guided.
[Prophet Ishmael was the ancestor of,and not a Prophet to, the Arabs who became a community long after he passed on. See note 2:125, 28:46, 36:6. And the message is to fan out from Arabia to all mankind 2:185, 3:3, 3:137, 6:19, 6:91, 10:2, 14:1, 25:1, 28:44, 30:58, 33:1 on, 39:41 on, 68:52]
36:6 That you may warn a people whose ancestors were not warned, and are, therefore, unaware of what is right and what is wrong. [2:125, 7:158, 28:46, 32:3]
Note: The Valley was a barren land, but Abraham settledhis family in the town of Makkah, near the soon to be built Ka’bah. So, contrary to popular legends, Abraham never left his family in the isolation of a desert]
http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119192319

Location... Kaabah (mecca) was built by Pr. Abraham or not?

by Jose Rizalino Sarmiento @, Sunday, September 01, 2013, 19:52 (1451 days ago) @ Dr Linda

NO..Prophet Ibrahim together with his son prophet Ismail raised the foundation of the Bayt in BAKKAH..MAKKAH is not BAKKAH..remember, God doesn't run out of words..:-)

Location... Where is Bakkah ??

by Dr Linda India, India, Monday, September 02, 2013, 18:54 (1451 days ago) @ Jose Rizalino Sarmiento

Dear Jose Rizalino Sarmiento,


You Wrote :
NO..Prophet Ibrahim together with his sonprophet Ismail raisedthe foundation of theBayt in BAKKAH..MAKKAH is not BAKKAH..remember, God doesn't run out of words..
My Question :
Where is Bakkah ??

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